Safer cars but more dangerous roads?

My mom and dad talked to a guy last weekend who was driving a classic Mini. They sent me pics, it was very nice. The guy said he drove it on nice days and Sundays, but wouldn't take it on the freeway because it's too dangerous will all the big SUV's and stuff.

That started me wondering. I grew up driving little British sports cars and, except for laughing at a light when I realized the transit bus's tires next to me were taller than my Bugeye, I never felt "unsafe". Yeah, I had to drive more defensively and aware of others, but probably no different than a motorcycle. I'd like to think I'd still drive a Sprite or a Mini or some other small classic car anywhere in the U.S. within reason. That might not be as easy around here, since our tolls have an 85 mph speed limit and most other major freeways are 70 or 75. But that would be less about safety and more about the car not being able to sustain that speed for very long without grenading itself. I mean, the Bugeye had a top speed of just under 85 when new....

What are your thoughts? If the speed limit issue wasn't a factor, would you drive a little car as a daily driver? If not, why?

Has our increase in vehicle safety removed our personal awareness of driving that much? Because our cars are safer, has it made our roads more dangerous to drive on?

When we get to self driving cars, will classics be banned from the roads if they don't have an awareness package to talk to other cars installed?

-Rob-

I daily a Miata in Washington DC... I have felt a bit sketch from time to time, but that is mostly due to the level of aggression that some people here drive with.

That said, I am restoring a Bugeye and I have hopes of driving it to the office at least once... (wonder what speed a bugeye with a 1275+ribcase will cruise at, I have the stock ?4.22's? in it but a ?3.90? center section to possibly swap in.)

I am reminded every time I drive my mr2 that today's full size pickups bumpers are right at my head level. I keep thinking a roll bar would be nice there....

With as distracted today's drivers are, with older tiny cars (which are far less safe than modern ones) its definately something to be aware of. Your thinking like your a motorcycle is spot on.

Modern cars ARE safe. Unless you do something truly stupid you're going to live through darn near any crash at legal speeds with another modern car. It's not that we're not aware of the dangers, there are just less dangers.

I've thought about getting a classic--MGB or Sprite or Triumph, maybe an old 124... But the thing that keeps me away from it is safety. If I get rear ended in that, I might be dead. In a Miata, I probably will be ok.

It is unfortunate, and unlikely, but I live in Chicago. Also, I like to drive my cars and don't want it to be a Sunday only vehicle.

rob_lewis wrote: The guy said he drove it on nice days and Sundays, but wouldn't take it on the freeway because it's too dangerous will all the big SUV's and stuff.

Unlike the small cars that ruled the road when the classic Mini was new, of course. The big guy has drum brakes on all four wheels.

I don't think the roads are more dangerous. Minis have always been small. We're just used to doors that are a foot thick.

See, that's what I'm thinking. The cars today really aren't that much bigger. True, some are taller (trucks, specifically), but with four wheel discs and better suspensions, they're still safer than the drum brake, single axle front end cars of old.

I think, and can agree in some way, his assumption is people don't pay attention as much as they use to. A large part of it has to do with cell phones (and radios and wifi enabled cars), but I'm willing to bet people also pay less attention because they feel safer in the car. I mean, how many commercials are there now showing a driver not paying attention and the car stops for them?

java230 wrote: I am reminded every time I drive my mr2 that today's full size pickups bumpers are right at my head level. I keep thinking a roll bar would be nice there....

In '67, my dad was sitting a stoplight in his '64 Sprite. There was a woman in a new GTO behind him. She wasn't paying attention and thought the light turned green and took her foot off the pedal. Didn't hit the accelerator. The momentum of that car crushed the rear end up into about half. I don't think the size today's cars are that much different. Weight, and therefore momentum, however is probably a lot more. For example, the loaded curb weight of a 2016 Mini Countryman is 3263 lbs. and a '65 Impala 4-door was around 3500.

-Rob

R&T took a bunch of their road test data and studied it in their 50th anniversary issue. One thing that I remember is that cars were getting more dense - higher weight but no increase in size. Your MINI/Impala example is right on the money.

Also, stopping distances were getting shorter and shorter. Acceleration numbers and cornering number improvements were tapering off, but the braking distances continued to improve.

Why you shouldn't drive a classic.

Summary- Stoned kid comes down the on ramp, knocks the rear wheel off a big forklift, crosses the median and headons a Beetle. Stoned kid is treated and released to police, Beetle driver is placed in a casket.

As always, your choice. I drive my junk on quiet roads on Sunday afternoons.

Once upon a time in the age of sailing ships. The relative "strength" of a vessel could be described by it's broadside weight. Meaning if one ship could throw 200 lbs of cannonballs at a time while another could hurl 400 lbs. All else being equal the dudes with the heavier broadside would win.

On today's streets the "broadside" is so much greater than in say 1980 that relatively speaking, yes today's roads are far more dangerous. Cars are heavier, faster, and more numerous. The increase in drivers (nearly double since then) vs the pitiful increase in miles of road (about 20 ?) means that traffic is indeed heavier than it used to be.

So if you are in old iron on modern roads.....you may as well be on a motorcycle.

I've always had unusual commuting times and have been able to avoid heavy traffic. Driving the mini rarely bothered me but the Ginetta (think Seven) felt pretty hairy in most traffic, be it highway or b roads. Most of the other Brit cars were in between although the Esprit was a pretty big car and "felt" safer.

I would not feel comfortable/safe commuting regularly in today's traffic.

edit; just remembered I was fine commuting through Atlanta down to the Peidmont area in a Europa. But it was bright yellow so it was safe.

One of the safest thing you can do while driving is being aware your car is a death trap. E.g. ever drive a car knowing it has bad brakes?

Most traffic accidents are avoidable in at least some way... unfortunately some are not.

As a motorcyclist, I am fully aware that size matters. I'm not under any delusions that it's safe. But I ride just like I drive, head on a swivel, constantly scanning mirrors, constantly assessing potential issues and looking for escape routes. Situational awareness is the difference between life and death. I haven't been surprised by anything out on the roads in a very long time. But I don't alter my driving/riding wether I'm in a 36,000 lb. truck, classic spots car or a motorcycle.

if you think about it has it ever been safe to drive a vehicle that is 40 years behind the other cars around you on the road? how do you think someone in a car from 1936 would hold up to a crash with a car from 1976? probably equally as E36 M3ty as someone in a car from 1976 holding up to a crash with a car from 2016. obviously some cars would be worse then others but with these kinds of generation gaps you are bound to see a big difference in safety, its to be expected. Not to say you should be afraid of driving a small car from the 70's, you should just know that you need to be more aware of your surroundings.

I drive the Samurai just about everywhere. Rush hour, to work, on the interstate. I get pulled out in front of, cut off, pretty much you name it. It's slow and that pisses people off. Paying attention solves most of those problems. The two crashes I have been in that were unavoidable would have been survivable in just about any car because paying attention let me slow down a lot by the time the impact occured.

The other .0001% of crashes I'm not going to worry about. Life and driving weird stuff, is too much fun to worry about dying in a crash.

It's not so much that the classics are any more dangerous than they were before, it's that our concept of acceptable risk has shifted. "Oh, I used to drive a X before, I wouldn't dare now!" is a reflection of your personal choices and priorities, not so much of increased danger.

I just realized that of all the cars in my garage, only 2 have functioning airbags. That's under 20%.

First of all, I realized that I may have sounded like I was knocking the guy. I didn't mean that. I just thought, gosh, cars are safer today but driving an old car is more dangerous.

Plus, I hit up y'all because you're the only car guys I know. Can't have a discussion like this with the "OMG!! I'd report anyone who puts their kids in a car without airbags to CPS" type of people. It's just an interesting thought for a Monday afternoon.

I think there's a bunch of good points made. Cars are much more dense and solid these days. Hitting and old car with an old car, both will tear up equally. An old car with a new car and the old car will suffer much more damage.
Plus, speeds and handling are much better. In some ways, that's a great thing. However, a Mini could maneuver away from an old Caddy much easier than it could a modern car.
And, there are a lot more roads and a lot more cars on the road than there was 50 years ago. That's a valid point.
I do think the attention span of a modern driver is still a factor, though. It's great that cars can help in-attentive drivers, but at what cost to us paying attention?

-Rob

With a couple of exceptions I have always driven small cars so I don't feel intimidated on the road. You just have to pay attention.

Cars are safer for sure, and people are driving them like they are invincible, Look at the new trend of Autonomous cars. they are slowly taking the human element out of our lives.

I just had a discussion with one of the heads of Localmotors. He wants to get most of the cars off the roads so their 3D printed cars would have a better chance at becoming profitable.

Then there is the distracted drivers today that were not around as prevalent 15 years ago.

rob_lewis wrote: Plus, I hit up y'all because you're the only car guys I know. Can't have a discussion like this with the "OMG!! I'd report anyone who puts their kids in a car without airbags to CPS" type of people. It's just an interesting thought for a Monday afternoon. -Rob

That's a great way to put it, and a timely topic. I need to vent....

With the disclaimer that I've moved to the Philly/NJ area approximately 2 years ago, my car enthusiam is.....dying. And that hurts to say, because I've been a car guy since I drove for the first time at 15 and realized that was going to be my hobby. Not football, not baseball, cars. Glorious glorious cars. Loved them ever since.

Commuting 35 miles one way everyday on I-95 and 295, and dealing with the utter, utter, idiocy on the roads is killing my passion for cars like poison. Driving my '65 Mustang Saturday morning, no commuter traffic, and a woman nearly took my bumper off. Apparently leaving more than 10' from the car in front of you means you're holding up traffic. Not that you're a responsible driver who knows what following distance is. She then hit the brakes, not seeing the car in the left lane that we were all queued up behind, while trying to pass the eighteen wheeler, I had to dive into the emergency lane. She then very kindly flipped me off to let me know she knew she'd messed up and would try to do better next time. Incidentally, if any of you know a woman with black hair, driving a dark colored Mazda 5 with NJ plates and "Salt Life" on the back that cut off a classic Mustang Saturday morning, please tell her "berkeley you" from me. And let me know if she'd like to meet in person so I can convey the rest of my feelings. I probably won't shoot her, I've cooled off a little bit.

Things like this happen at least once a week (though usually I'm an observer shaking me head, rather than an active participant). The BMW with New York plates that passed a truck on the shoulder, rather than using the middle or left lane, both of which were clear of traffic. The idiots who do 5 under in the left lane, then peg the throttle and accelerate to 90 when you dare pass them on the right.

All of it is really taking the fun out of cars for me. I went to the Hagley car show in Delaware on Sunday, and for the first time, I couldn't summon much passion or enthusiasm. Didn't want to talk to the owners, didn't want to ask about the cars, just felt.....meh. And I never feel meh about cars. Lately my attitude is trending towards, "The average driver makes the road such a E36 M3ty place to be, I honestly don't want to be there anymore. How can I remove this inconvenience and negative experience from my life?"

Just rambling, and hoping others may have faced something like this and found a way past it. I think I need to leave the northeast. There's too many people here, they're all grumpy, and I'm starting to think it's contagious.

Decreasing radius turns, the old turn at Daytona thru me for a loop. Never saw one before where it got tighter and tighter and tighter till woops?

I kinda feel safer in small cars, there's less car to get into an accident with. Hooray for flyweight vehicles that handle well!

Wasn't there a comparison between a '60 Chevy and a modern car ten or so years ago? Seems like the Chevy looked BAD. Non collapsible column=DEAD.

All that said, I believe the problem is the illusion of safety. Yes, we could all die in a horrible classic car accident. I'm more worried about climate change. Or a meteor colliding with the earth, or aliens.

Are you going to live on your knees, or die on your feet?

The above is an opinion, and not meant to be incendiary in any way.

TRoglodyte wrote: Decreasing radius turns, the old turn at Daytona thru me for a loop. Never saw one before where it got tighter and tighter and tighter till woops?

I’m in Southern California right on the “hump” that runs parallel to the coastline and those are almost the norm rather than the exception…Mulholland Drive, Decker Canyon, Kanan Road, etc.

They’re really easy to spot though as they’ve got lots of black squiggly lines all over the pavement that terminate at mangled guardrails.

RX Reven' wrote:

TRoglodyte wrote: Decreasing radius turns, the old turn at Daytona thru me for a loop. Never saw one before where it got tighter and tighter and tighter till woops?

I’m in Southern California right on the “hump” that runs parallel to the coastline and those are almost the norm rather than the exception…Mulholland Drive, Decker Canyon, Canyon Road, etc. They’re really easy to spot though as they’ve got lots of black squiggly lines all over the pavement that terminate at mangled guardrails.

They are SOP around here. We don't get the mangled guardrails though, you either fly off the embankment or kiss the concrete.