Schools, Shootings, Children and Adulthood

Chris_V said:

trigun7469 said:

Whenever someone says to me if we only had more regulations, then A or B would not happen and that politicians need to step in. Regulations are made in a Smokey room and manipulated by interest groups, insurance companies and lawyers, I don’t believe they are in any shape or form to help the situation. 

 Research the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/triangle-shirtwaist-fire-in-new-york-city Regulations would have prevented that fire and the loss of life. And since then, regulations HAVE prevented it. Regulations keep companies from operating sweatshops in this country and have made the air breathable again in urban areas. Regulations keep human waste from accumulating in the streets. I can go on for a LONG time about how regulations have kept people from harm over the decades since the time of the robber barons. But to you, it's just smoky backroom crap designed to take away your freedom.

This.

There are 25 mph signs posted on residential streets only because, every once in while, there is some shiny happy person that thinks 55 is OK even with all the kids running around. Reasonable and responsible people don't need to see the sign to know what's right.

Even China is regulating because the people want clean air and water, not an anarchy economy.

Interestingly my 109 year old shotgun shoots as fast as my AR. Remington Model 11, holds 8 rounds. kicks like a mule. 

Chris_V said:

wjones said:

You know on gun forums there going ape-E36 M3 saying that this is all a conspiracy; the kids are being used as pawns and embellishing their distress; they are being paid by the anti-gunners.

The only solution for them is to allow guns in schools. 

Oh, yeah. Brenda the social studies teacher is who I want brandishing a gun in the middle of a hundred panicked kids. We can't even fund school supplies and those NRA morons want teachers to buy, train, and carry weapons?

What about the teachers that want  the option to carry?  My wife was a teacher (stay-at-home mom and homeschool teacher) and she mentioned numerous times how other teachers at her school would have liked to have the option.  

In reply to Chris_V :

Thank you. This forum is not the medium for everything that we all WANT to say. Fortunately, the internet is full of places to express ourselves to our full delight. 

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

Re: spending on prisons vs education.

That is both incredibly worrying and easily actionable, reminds me of the freakonomics theory of roe v wade being the single largest driver of american crime reduction in the 90's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect). Let's get on the phone with our representatives!

jmabarone said:

Chris_V said:

wjones said:

You know on gun forums there going ape-E36 M3 saying that this is all a conspiracy; the kids are being used as pawns and embellishing their distress; they are being paid by the anti-gunners.

The only solution for them is to allow guns in schools. 

Oh, yeah. Brenda the social studies teacher is who I want brandishing a gun in the middle of a hundred panicked kids. We can't even fund school supplies and those NRA morons want teachers to buy, train, and carry weapons?

What about the teachers that want  the option to carry?  My wife was a teacher (stay-at-home mom and homeschool teacher) and she mentioned numerous times how other teachers at her school would have liked to have the option.  

I saw on book face that the sheriff of my home county, Butler county in Ohio, is giving free classes to teachers (who wish to do so) and they will receive concealed carry permit at the end. It is legal for them to carry in school there. In the interview he said they are getting close and expect to get 500 teachers signed up. 

In reply to Nick Comstock :

in Indiana it is never legal for anyone except LEO to have a firearm on a school campus or location that has a pre-school. 

spitfirebill said:

frenchyd said:

I mean machine guns are illegal aren’t they?  

 

No.  Just very difficult and expensive to get... if you want to do it legally.  

And the path we've taken for machine guns is the path I think we should be taking with semi-automatic centerfire rifles.  Make them NFA items, without the manufacturing date cutoff, and then give folks a year to register or turn them in for full retail. They won't be illegal, but they won't be sold at WalMart to anyone with a pulse and good enough handwriting to fill out the 4473.  

At the same time figure out what broke in the background check processes for the last couple shooters, enforce regulations on sharing databases, etc.  It's a good first step on the gun side of things imo.  

The rest?  Investing more money in schools, created mediation and intervention programs, and organizing community involvement and outreach is a start. I'd actually like to see marksmanship and gun safety taught in the schools again (in a country with millions of guns, it's probably a good idea), along with actual sex ed classes, how to "adult" classes, etc. You know, preparing teenagers for the rigors of life.  I don't know how you can re-convince people that paying taxes to support better schools, better programs, etc can actually be a net benefit to society though...  because I don't know how to convince someone that it's good to care about the well-being of other people in your community.  I hear, see, and understand the arguments against government waste and excess, but that's why you have to be involved and educated.  Democracy is hard and requires active participation to thrive as a society.  

Teacher's getting CCW's and carrying in class is berkeleying stupid. 

Sorry for the ninja edit below, trying to clarify my thought. :)

<ninja edit> Schools aren't targets because they're "gun free zones", they're targets because attacking and killing children causes pain, suffering, and terror in the worst way.  

As a side rant, I don't know when it happened but at some point owning guns became a fetish and a lifestyle for a lot of people.  Shooting sports and gun ownership seems to at some point gone from just something American's did on a scale greater than anywhere else in the world to a minor religion coupled with the "sheep dog" mentality and I don't understand it.  Strangely it seems to coincide with the year on year drops in violent crime and murder over the last couple decades.  Maybe I'm just old enough (34) to see it now, or maybe now that there's statistically less to be scared of people are more scared than ever?

In reply to skierd :

Just to clarify, with regards to Butler county Ohio it's completely voluntary.

skierd said:

Teacher's getting mandatory CCW's is berkeleying stupid.  

I don't think that teachers getting the training for CCW is a bad idea, as it may allow them to be more equipped to handle a gun properly in the event that they find one in the school. I don't think that requiring them to carry in school is the right answer though.

In reply to skierd :

We agree! Yeaaaa 

EastCoastMojo said:

skierd said:

Teacher's getting mandatory CCW's is berkeleying stupid.  

I don't think that teachers getting the training for CCW is a bad idea, as it may allow them to be more equipped to handle a gun properly in the event that they find one in the school. I don't think that requiring them to carry in school is the right answer though.

AS ALWAYS, the right answer is between the two extremes. Here, there is no way for anyone non-LEO to have a firearm anywhere near a school. There should be a legal way for a proper person to still carry as they can anywhere else. 

EastCoastMojo said:

skierd said:

Teacher's getting mandatory CCW's is berkeleying stupid.  

I don't think that teachers getting the training for CCW is a bad idea, as it may allow them to be more equipped to handle a gun properly in the event that they find one in the school. I don't think that requiring them to carry in school is the right answer though.

exactly. in Time Magazine, there was an article that listed the actual percentages for a police officer to hit a perpetrator in a gunfight.. 18%. These are trained professionals, what kind of percentages would a teacher have?

Bob the REAL oil guy. said:

EastCoastMojo said:

skierd said:

Teacher's getting mandatory CCW's is berkeleying stupid.  

I don't think that teachers getting the training for CCW is a bad idea, as it may allow them to be more equipped to handle a gun properly in the event that they find one in the school. I don't think that requiring them to carry in school is the right answer though.

AS ALWAYS, the right answer is between the two extremes. Here, there is no way for anyone non-LEO to have a firearm anywhere near a school. There should be a legal way for a proper person to still carry as they can anywhere else. 

Exactly.  There are a good number, even majority of, teachers who have no business carrying.  But not every teacher is an incapable bumble fingered buffoon and allowing those who are willing and capable of protecting their charges in an effective manner only makes logical sense.  As cops will tell you, when seconds count, they are just minutes away.  Having a RESPONSIBLE person on the scene at the start of an emergency makes a difference.  It isn't a perfect idea but it's better than doing nothing.

As Bob pointed out, guns don't expire or go away so banning some of them while there is an existing 300+ million already in circulation is a fruitless exercise.  As such, let's actually deal with the genie instead of vainly trying to stuff it back in the bottle.

In reply to mad_machine :

Depends on how good a shot the teacher is I would guess. I'm positive there are many people in many different professions that have the ability to perform on par or better during duress than the average police officer.

Half serious, but hows about a net gun in each classroom?

I've heard they're telling kids to throw stuff at an attacker as a last resort....so this seems a middle ground between nothing and an armed teacher.

(For the record, I'm for armed teachers if the teachers themselves are ok with it, and are well trained and vetted.I understand most teachers are going to be against it.)

Silly acting in vid, I'd like to see someone really trying to get out of it:

Nick Comstock said:

In reply to mad_machine :

Depends on how good a shot the teacher is I would guess. I'm positive there are many people in many different professions that have the ability to perform on par or better during duress than the average police officer.

Most police forces only require that they hit hte range 1 or 2 times a year and most officers are not "gun people". It's not uncommon for a gun enthususiast to put thousands of rounds down range a year. Hell,I used to go through 2k rounds of .45 each year for a long time. My best friend who spent time with a local PD only had to put 200 rds on target once a year. Repetition makes a better shooter if you're doing it right. 

I would like for a minute go back to Volvo Clearing House's  original question. I think we should consider moving the age of majority back to 21. I was certainly did not have my stuff together to function as an adult when I was 18.  Fortunately on some level I understood it. I stayed in "the village" of older people of people who had guided me until then. So even though I had the right to do many things and get into all kinds trouble I managed not to.

A lot of science studying brain development indicates that most people are not fully formed yet by 18. The judgment center of the brain is still under construction through out the teenage years.  Maybe we collectively need to just slow down and let kids be kids a while longer.

Type Q said:

I would like for a minute go back to Volvo Clearing House's  original question. I think we should consider moving the age of majority back to 21. I was certainly did not have my stuff together to function as an adult when I was 18.  Fortunately on some level I understood it. I stayed in "the village" of older people of people who had guided me until then. So even though I had the right to do many things and get into all kinds trouble I managed not to.

A lot of science studying brain development indicates that most people are not fully formed yet by 18. The judgment center of the brain is still under construction through out the teenage years.  Maybe we collectively need to just slow down and let kids be kids a while longer.

I've read, and I can't remember where, this same thing and what I took away was that the average human brain isn't fully developed until about 23 or 24. The reason for a 21 year old drinking age (in the US) was sort of a happy medium between legal (18) and fully grown up. It was years ago that I read about it and I am by no means a biologist. All I really know is that at 29 I still struggle to adult. And I believe there is more to being a responsible adult than just being able to hold a job and provide for yourself and family/offspring. 

I own a semi automatic rifle with a fairly large capacity at 15 rounds. I have also been very tempted by an AR simply because "get one before you can't." I haven't bought one for several reasons but the biggest is that I don't know how I would react in a situation where I would need it for self defense. I'll leave my gun argument there because it a complex issue and I have conflicting ideas on the subject.

Anyway. I have many friends that argue that there are more people struggling with mental/social/health issues than ever before. I don't know enough on the topic. I think people are too quick to self diagnose (thanks google) and doctors are too quick to push pills, everyone looking for the easy button.

Maybe we do look at moving "legal ages" around. Driving, drinking, voting... I don't know the answer but this might be somewhere to start.

http://kxan.com/2018/02/21/two-handguns-found-inside-bathrooms-at-ut-campuses/

And there's been at least 50 airline pilots who have lost their armed pilot status because of screwups: failure to qualify, accidental discharges, etc.  So are we sure that arming teachers is a good idea? Bob, you talk about police officers not having enough on-range time due to not being "gun people." You think that arming all the teachers will make all of them (or even a majority of them) suddenly "gun people" and much better under dire circumstances than the police?

20% of the full time teachers would equal about 640,000 teachers to be trained and armed. $1000 each for the training, $500 for a sidearm, extra insurance, and yearly recerts, would cost how much now? And we can't pay for school supplies as it is?

Of course, there would be some additional advantages to armed teachers. "Timmy, what did I say about talking during class?"*Unbuttons holster*

Adding to the armed teachers debate, I don't believe that's a viable answer. I have a large number of friends and family who teach anything from elementary to university, they want nothing more than to help their students better themselves in every way possible. It would be very hard for someone to pull the trigger on someone they've seen day after day.

Also, there was an armed  "resource officer' stationed at the school in Florida, they waited outside in a defensive position for 4-6 minutes while the attach occurred. 

Increasing the age for legal ownership seems like a fine idea on the surface, but it's not going to stop anybody that's remotely determined to go through with something like this. How many of these shooters are using their own weapons? It seems like most of them use guns from their families' gun safes, or their buddy's house, etc. Sick, determined people will find a way. They'll buy guns illegally, or they'll legally purchase parts, and download free models to 3D print untraceable, unregistered guns. You'll still have kids that grow up using guns for hunting with their dads, or receiving military training long before they'd legally be able to own a firearm.

I think it's crazy that a hormonal, immature and easily influenced teen can own firearms, but I don't think that raising the age of ownership would curtail stuff like this as much as people hope. I'm not completely against trying, but I worry that it might be mostly a wasted effort that fails to address the root cause.

I’ll weigh in on the op’s remarks. Kids aren’t experiencing the real world as soon as they used to. My dad used to help his grandmother butcher chickens and harvest tobacco 60 years ago, as a kid.  Not that diy kfc and farming are the norm, just that parents are so protective and too eager to “coddle kids to success” which cannot work.

Frankly, my kids get food and shelter, a solid mom and dad, and access to a good public school. They’re going to have to figure out a lot on their own. And fairly soon.  If I baby them too much now they’ll have no competitive chance when they’re working-age. They’ll know apps and social media but not people skills and the immediate returns of hard work.

Kids that go nuclear are over-prescribed, too coddled, and unable to cope with the big real world. So they snap. “This is it. Gotta go big now or never.” How silly is that at 18? They have 70 years of life left. The result of no foundation for real life.

In reply to johndej :

I imagine that has more to do with the resource officer position being used as a retirement position or cushy job instead of being taken seriously.

In reply to pheller :

skierd should run for office.

Expanding the NFA class of weapons would be fought heavily, but is a decent idea.