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KyAllroad (Jeremy)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) PowerDork
2/23/18 2:20 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
bigdaddylee82 said:

As for the AR-15 variants, you can't simply "make one fully auto," it's not just drop in parts, an auto sear will not physically fit inside of an off the shelf AR lower receiver.

From my understanding while it's not a "bolt-in" mod, you can machine an-off-the-shelf lower receiver to accept a "bolt-in" full auto mod or CNC your own full-auto lower receiver from scratch, correct? (although it is super illegal to do so)

While there is much hand wringing about people modding their weapons to go full auto, it's both harder to do and not particularly worthwhile.  I trained on the old M-16A1, not the weenie A2 with it's 3 round burst BS but the real deal "rock-n-roll" Vietnam era rifle and here is a little secret for you:  troops don't actually use it.  Full auto will empty your 30 round mag in about 1.4 seconds, overheat the barrel, and make actually hitting a target virtually impossible.  I only fired mine on full auto once in 4 years including Desert Storm.

That said, we didn't train to take down densely packed crowds of innocents so my experience is a bit different.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/23/18 2:23 p.m.

The high school my 13 y/o daughter will start attending next year just reported that someone wrote “four girls, five boys, and one gun” on a bathroom wall yesterday.

Uniformed police were put on the campus today and even some local middle schools are bringing in additional security. Um, what is the point…how will this improve safety in any way what so ever…I don’t get it.

~330 million guns in the U.S…the high school is surrounded on three sides by open land…unless the attacker is so wildly impatient that they can’t lay low for a few days until something else catches the public’s attention (bird!), this response seems utterly futile.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy UltimaDork
2/23/18 2:30 p.m.

"I want a day off from school.  Better spray paint a threat somewhere."

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
2/23/18 2:32 p.m.

In reply to RX Reven' :

It's tough, because we all know we have to do something, but we don't know (and/or don't agree on) what to actually do.

It'd be a darn hard call for me if I was the school's superintendent.

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
2/23/18 2:39 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

"I want a day off from school.  Better spray paint a threat somewhere."

Agree. But as the superintendent, calling that bluff and being right has very small positive consequence, and being wrong carries a massive negative consequence. 

Everyone would love to say they don't negotiate with terrorists/kidnappers, but when the situation comes they probably would and should.

Dirtydog
Dirtydog GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/23/18 3:21 p.m.

About 50 years ago, when I was in high school, this type of violence was unheard of.  It would have been 3 o'clock by the flag pole.  Excepting Texas Tower.

About 18 years ago, when my son was in high school, this type of violence, was fairly rare.

About 10 years ago, when my daughter was in High school, things started to change.  I don't get it.

One thing is for sure, you can't regulate crazy.

Furious_E
Furious_E GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/23/18 3:59 p.m.

I've held back on commenting in this thread the past few days, as my own thoughts on the matter are still kind of developing, but I've enjoyed reading the informed opinions of you all. So first, let me say thank you for keeping this discourse civil and the discussion ongoing, as it's been a lot more informative and nuanced than anything else I've read or heard on the subject. Some of my thoughts:

-This particular incident seems largely to be a complete and utter failure on the part of law enforcement. It's not like this kid up and decided one day, without warning, "Hey, I think I'm gonna shoot up a school today," there were 20-30 separate reports made to law enforcement. And not a single damn thing was done about it. I could see dismissing a single, isolated complaint, but there was a pervasive pattern here. What went wrong at the FBI or local PD that this was never followed up on? Was it lack of resources? Lack of proper protocol? Was protocol even followed? Something went seriously wrong here. If we need to create another legal mechanism to keep a known threat such as this Cruz kid from his guns, than so be it, though I agree there needs to be oversight and due process. Call it Monday morning quarterbacking, but this incident was entirely preventable. 

-Second major failure on the part of law enforcement was the school resource officer, the man whose charge it was to protect these kids, is a coward. A berkeleying Bob Costas. He was the only person with a weapon in a position where he could have done something to at least limit the loss of life and he sat there and did nothing, even as completely unarmed teachers went charging to the scene. Sure, easy for me to say sitting here at my key board, but if you're going to sign up to do that job you need to be prepared to do all that entails, including putting yourself in harms way when the situation calls for. We can talk all we want turning schools into prisons, adding security, adding armed guards, but here we have a 'good guy with a gun' who was in a position to act and chose not to. Not sure what you can do about that.

-I think arming teachers is a silly solution, even on a voluntary basis, that is more likely to do harm than good. Putting more weapons into schools is only allowing another point of access for these disturbed individuals, as well as normal students who might simply have a curiosity in weapons. You can put whatever rules into place you want to try and make sure those weapons are secured at all times, but mistakes will happen, and the potential consequences are severe. 

-I have very mixed thoughts on the whole assault weapons issue. Philosophically, I have a pretty libertarian mindset and have a hard time agreeing to take rights away from any law abiding citizens without just and proper cause, while also recognizing the social contract dictates we need to have some level of reasonable standards to be upheld to prevent us from devolving into complete chaos. It's the fundamental question of a free and democratic society, where you draw that line. I have a very hard time seeing why 99.9% of the population has any legitimate reason to own one (but by that same token why does anyone need a 500hp sports car? They surely kill enough people on an annual basis as well.) For the record, I am a gun owner and have shot AR-15s and other "assault style" weapons.

I also don't believe simply banning assault weapons, or semi-auto rifles altogether, is going to solve the issue at all, it's simply going to displace it elsewhere. Can't buy an AR-15 and 30 round mags? No problem, I'll buy a Glock, which is much easier to carry and conceal and will also dispense bullets as quickly as I can move my trigger finger, and stuff my pockets with 15 round mags (not that you can't get 30 round mags for a Glock either...) So then what, we ban all semi-auto pistols, which is a perfectly reasonable and hugely versatile weapon for self defense? I also have a hard time seeing how one would specifically word the language on an "assault weapons" ban in a way that couldn't be Smokey Yunik-ed without also outlawing a number of other perfectly reasonable weapons.

I've got more I'd like to say, but it's about time I head home from work, so maybe later. 

wjones
wjones New Reader
2/23/18 4:15 p.m.
RX Reven' said:

The high school my 13 y/o daughter will start attending next year just reported that someone wrote “four girls, five boys, and one gun” on a bathroom wall yesterday.

Uniformed police were put on the campus today and even some local middle schools are bringing in additional security. Um, what is the point…how will this improve safety in any way what so ever…I don’t get it.

~330 million guns in the U.S…the high school is surrounded on three sides by open land…unless the attacker is so wildly impatient that they can’t lay low for a few days until something else catches the public’s attention (bird!), this response seems utterly futile.

I had the pleasure of that experience this school year as well. 

Ashyukun (Robert)
Ashyukun (Robert) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
2/23/18 4:25 p.m.

There's obviously no single solution that is going to both be 100% effective or make everyone happy. But clearly whatever we've been doing so far has not only been working, it's getting worse so simply throwing our hands up and saying (as has been the case for a while- at least since Sandy Hook...) "There's just nothing that could be done..." is not going to cut it anymore.

The first thing I think that should be done is to better understand the problem- and doing that will mean being able to actively research and report on it, which means repealing the so-called Dickey Amendment banning the CDC from studying gun violence. I don't understand how anyone truly interested in finding a solution to this problem could argue that not being able to study it is helpful in the least.

Bob the REAL oil guy.
Bob the REAL oil guy. MegaDork
2/23/18 4:29 p.m.

In reply to Furious_E :

very well said.

Hal
Hal UltraDork
2/23/18 6:58 p.m.
Bob the REAL oil guy. said:

I agree with this teacher, my wife has said many of the same things over the last 5 years

YES, YES, YES.   And the longer I taught (28 years), the harder it became to do anything about these kind of situations.  If the parents managed to get their "special child" classified properly you couldn't suspend them.  Even if they beat up another student so bad that they had to go to the hospital.

markwemple
markwemple UberDork
2/23/18 7:40 p.m.

Research has made it clear that this ISN'T a "mental health" issue otherwise a lot more mentally ill people would be doing this. If there is a connections it is white and male. SO take the guns away from white men. I'd be ok with that and I'm white and male. 

Furious_E
Furious_E GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/23/18 8:51 p.m.

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

That's just yet another example - along with the prison/school spending disparities presented a few pages back - of why we cant get anything meaningful done in this country in the current political climate. It's all about the berkeleying money, special interests, nothing more, nothing less. It's not a red and blue, right and left issue, it's both sides, each with it's different players. Our politicians are bought and sold to the highest bidder and scared to death of pissing them off. It's not an excuse to just sit back and do nothing about controversial issues like these, but we need to recognize that nothing meaningful is going to get done in this country until we put people in charge that actually have our best interests in mind.

I wish that just for one election cycle we could all just put aside the specific issues that divide left and right, and agree to say berkeley it, we'll work on them the next time around, and instead just focus on putting some people in office willing to enact meaningful reform, get money out of politics, put some term limits on congressmen, and fix the system. This is what needs to happen if we want a government that is actually gonna berkeleying fix this E36 M3.

Sorry if i am a bit off topic and probably bordering on patio territory, but i am trying to be non-specific so as not to piss anyone off.

wlkelley3
wlkelley3 UltraDork
2/23/18 9:27 p.m.
wjones said:
Bob the REAL oil guy. said:

I agree with this teacher, my wife has said many of the same things over the last 5 years

Cool rant and all, but this kid's (adoptive) parents are/were dead. Kid's don't chose not to grow up with two parents at home and a white picket fence.

Shouldn't stop the guardians from teaching responsibility for ones action. I agree that this article is probably the closest description of the issue. Wasn't a problem 40-50 years ago when I went to school for the reasons stated in that article. Times have changed and what parents/guardians did back then is no longer acceptable. Used to be an old saying of it takes a village to raise a child.

Crxpilot
Crxpilot Reader
2/23/18 9:29 p.m.

A less popular angle on what’s happening.

Not that mental health is the underlying issue, but over-reacting parents or lazy diagnoses can lead to people getting their hands on some pretty powerful drugs.  My opinion is that too many are misdiagnosed and drugs are thrown their way to “fix the problem.” 

Grizz
Grizz UberDork
2/23/18 9:45 p.m.

In reply to markwemple :

Replace "white men" with "black men" and see if your statement is still ok to say in public.

EastCoastMojo
EastCoastMojo GRM+ Memberand Mod Squad
2/23/18 9:49 p.m.

The issues we have before us transcend skin color, socio-eonomic class, and many other divisionist factors. Throwing the race card into the conversation is not adding to the discussion, it's trolling. 

markwemple
markwemple UberDork
2/23/18 9:56 p.m.

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.


Grizz
Grizz UberDork
2/23/18 10:15 p.m.

In reply to markwemple :

You keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it helps you rationalize your desire to strip away the rights of millions of people from one ethnic group who didn't actually do anything wrong just because SOME of them did. Of course, thoughts like that are why the 2A was written in the first place.

As for the rest of your post, I've seen enough of what you've written lately to know exactly why you think that way and I'm not going to bother with it since I don't want to be the reason this thread is locked.

EastCoastMojo
EastCoastMojo GRM+ Memberand Mod Squad
2/23/18 10:22 p.m.

Let's all take a big step back from the keyboard. Internet arguments don't bring peace or change, they only perpetuate the discord.

markwemple
markwemple UberDork
2/23/18 10:24 p.m.

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

Only if you only type and don't listen. I think both are possible.

wjones
wjones New Reader
2/23/18 10:25 p.m.
wlkelley3 said:
wjones said:
Bob the REAL oil guy. said:

I agree with this teacher, my wife has said many of the same things over the last 5 years

Cool rant and all, but this kid's (adoptive) parents are/were dead. Kid's don't chose not to grow up with two parents at home and a white picket fence.

Shouldn't stop the guardians from teaching responsibility for ones action. I agree that this article is probably the closest description of the issue. Wasn't a problem 40-50 years ago when I went to school for the reasons stated in that article. Times have changed and what parents/guardians did back then is no longer acceptable. Used to be an old saying of it takes a village to raise a child.

That's a lot to throw onto guardians who might or might not be ready, willing, and able volunteers.

Good parenting is a great thing. I agree with the article and live it (my kids will testify how up their ass my wife and I can get about stuff). But, it still holds true, kids don't get to pick their parents.

There were plenty of problems 40 or 50 years ago, they just manifested themselves differently. Plus, you couldn't mow down children in school quite as readily back then either <- not that gun control will fix this problem by itself.

The Florida incident was certainly preventable. Many failings. It was a "gimmie" to head off. Yet, it wasn't.

I'd definitely be in favor or raising the age limit on center-fire semi's to 21 (and the draft age as well or placing a service exemption). We also need to enforce the rules that already exist and make sure checks include mental health issues. I'm definitely for punishing those that allow their guns to do harm (secure you weapons!). And some sort of rule that says if they guns you buy keep ending up 'lost or stolen' your cut off.

EastCoastMojo
EastCoastMojo GRM+ Memberand Mod Squad
2/23/18 10:36 p.m.

In reply to markwemple :

Then I suggest that you take my advice. You two are heating up the room. This is an emotional subject for many, yet we can remain civil in our tone while discussing our different perspectives, if we choose to do so. 

markwemple
markwemple UberDork
2/23/18 10:51 p.m.

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.


Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
2/23/18 11:34 p.m.

Before this gets locked, I'd like to point out that many existing laws, policies, and ideas meant to keep this from happening failed in this situation. As more and more info gets out, it's appalling how many warnings were ignored and opportunities to prevent this individual from being in position to commit this act were missed. It was the perfect storm of doing everything wrong. 

He had a long history of disciplinary problems and violence. This was not the "really nice guy" that snapped. 

He had between 20-40 contacts with police with allegations of domestic and elder abuse. 

He was evaluated by mental health professionals. 

He was reported twice to the FBI. Not because he was a little weird, he literally called himself a school shooter. 

After all that was missed and he commenced his horrific act, an armed, trained police officer stood by and did nothing. 

After the shooting, he simply walked away. The school surveillance system was screwed up, and the "live" feed had a 20 minute delay. The authorities monitoring him though they had him cornered, when in fact he was at Subway getting a soda. WTF?!? 

There are two parts to solving this problem. Preventing these monsters from forming in the first place, and preventing the ones that do from accomplishing their goal. While the former warrants good discussion, I think the failures need to be addressed first when discussing the latter. 

 

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