Sheriff Dupnik is an idiot

Bob, I think you may be missing my point. My prevailing thought was NOT to let the police traipse in doing whatever they want. It was that IF SOMEONE IS BLOWING THROUGH YOUR FRONT DOOR MAKE DAMN SURE IT IS NOT THE COPS BEFORE LEVELING A SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARM (THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE IT'S FULLY AUTOMATIC COUNTERPART) AT THEM IN A POORLY DEFENDED POSITION.

Don't get me wrong, the officers involved are 100% responsible for the young mans death WITH CAUSE. I think no-knock raids are a violation of personal privacy. I think owning an AR-15, while legal, is just asking for trouble. I fault all parties in this affair and my heart truly goes out to the wife and children.

If the Marine was hit with two or three rounds I could say it was because he was holding a gun. There is absolutely no excuse for 70 spent rounds, 60 hits, and an hour before emergency services intervention.

I was not a Marine. I was never in a hot zone. I have not been in the position where I would be having cops crash through my doors. I do not know why a trained soldier would leave himself in such a tactically poor position once the E36 M3 hit the fan. The whole episode makes me sick. I hope there is some justice to come from this.

HiTempguy wrote: I'm curious as to why he just had an assault rifle lying around...

If you lived in Pima County, AZ you wouldn't have to ask that question.

As the OP noted, this tragic episode falls directly into the lap of local enforcement and the Sheriff's department. Oh, and this agency is led by the same guy (Dupknik) who claimed Loughner's rage was incited by right-wing extremism. Turned out that the Sheriff's people had plenty of exposure to the guy and could have detained/interred for observation long before he killed some people and wounded a dozen (or so) others, including a sitting member of Congress.

as for why there would be an AR-15 "laying around" seems pretty clear cut for me, he was trained by the US gov't to use the military version of this rifle in combat and he would have had inimate knowledge and comfort with it, hence it would be an ideal choice as a rifle to own as a civilian. Although not specifically stated in anything I have read yet I wouldn't be surprised if he also had a Berreta Model 92 as it is the civilian version of the M9 pistol he was trained with and carried in Iraq.

The whole thing just makes me sick to my core.

HiTempguy wrote: I'm curious as to why he just had an assault rifle lying around...

It is not an assault rifle it is a tactical semi automatic rifle, and I have both an AK-47 and a pump action shotgun loaded and ready to go in my house. It is legal and I am trained in their use.

However the local police know me and are aware of my weapons which are registered and police have access to these records.

Something is very wrong with this story, sounds like it was an intentional attack. Can you say conspiracy.

The police do (or should do) background checks, real estate searches, utilities searches and firearms searches prior to applying for a no knock warrant. it is also common to conduct an observation post prior to executing a warrant for drugs.

As for denying no knock warrants, this would simply lead to many hostage situations and sieges. The problem here isn't the warrant, it seems to be a complete lack of research ... or was it deliberate.

aussiesmg wrote: It is not an assault rifle it is a tactical semi automatic rifle, and I have both an AK-47 and a pump action shotgun loaded and ready to go in my house. It is legal and I am trained in their use.

Sorry, as a Canadian, this is all sorts of odd to my little brain (sure, we have a couple of .22's in the garage, but that's not really the same thing).

What I meant was, I'm curious as to how he had it in his hands so quickly and out into the hallway... doesn't sound like proper storage procedure to me, but I digress.

I'd also like to point out that while what the cops did was wrong (or sounds wrong), there are points in your life where you get to be right... and it leads to you being dead right. As was posted by someone else, I think that there were a LOT of missteps on both parties parts.

John Brown wrote: Bob, I think you may be missing my point. My prevailing thought was NOT to let the police traipse in doing whatever they want. It was that IF SOMEONE IS BLOWING THROUGH YOUR FRONT DOOR MAKE DAMN SURE IT IS NOT THE COPS BEFORE LEVELING A SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARM (THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE IT'S FULLY AUTOMATIC COUNTERPART) AT THEM IN A POORLY DEFENDED POSITION.

And how would you propose he do that. Make a cup of tea and have a questionnaire at the ready? Seriously. When an armed man broke into our house in detroit there was only one concern. The safety of everyone in the house. I'm not about to
a) not have a weapon ready
b) not take the offensive to protect my family
c) give the perps (or perps who's wages I'm paying in this case) the chance to bust a cap yo
See, when the pigs break into a house it is their responsibility to announce themselves. If they do a no-knock warrant there should be just cause, in this case there wasn't. In the case of a no-knock warrant they need to be aware that the people inside COULD be innocent and ready, willing, and able/eager to protect themselves the way the constitution allows. People seem to be picturing this man, standing in the hallway taking aim. I imagine he walked into the hallway and, before he could get a word out or realize what was going on he had a few pounds of lead in him.
I also find it astonishing that a man can take 60+ rounds and live for another hour. I hope these kids grow up set for life as much as they can be after this. I hope every pig in that house pays a very dear price and the moron that let off the premature shot that started all of this goes to prison with a tattoo on his forehead that says "I'm a cop. I arrested your mother".

And as far as the semi-auto or full-auto issue. It doesn't matter. If it was a .22 pistol or a slingshot they would have perforated him just the same.

HiTempguy wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: It is not an assault rifle it is a tactical semi automatic rifle, and I have both an AK-47 and a pump action shotgun loaded and ready to go in my house. It is legal and I am trained in their use.

Sorry, as a Canadian, this is all sorts of odd to my little brain (sure, we have a couple of .22's in the garage, but that's not really the same thing). What I meant was, I'm curious as to how he had it in his hands so quickly and out into the hallway... doesn't sound like proper storage procedure to me, but I digress. I'd also like to point out that while what the cops did was wrong (or sounds wrong), there are points in your life where you get to be right... and it leads to you being dead right. As was posted by someone else, I think that there were a LOT of missteps on both parties parts.

As an expat Aussie I understand your view, but having lived in the US for the past 12 years, understand that the firearms situation is VERY different, from ownership down to storage.

Storage of a home defense weapon means keeping it in a place that is accessible in a dire situation. Of course safely away from young hands is paramount but within reach is right up there.

I dispute the victim did anything wrong, the cops should have known what the situation they were causing could lead to. I find it hard to believe they didn't know this, that is the reason to do the background checking prior to applying for a warrant. The Police and the Police alone created the situation and proceeded to the point of shooting a man 60 times, this was a lot of very trigger happy and prepared to shoot cops.

By the way, I say this with experience I was a VicPol cop for 16 years including 8 years as a Detective in Australia. In this capacity I executed a great number of early morning "no knock" warrants. I have done the research and managed to never kill an innocent man, woman or child.

HiTempguy wrote: What I meant was, I'm curious as to how he had it in his hands so quickly and out into the hallway... doesn't sound like proper storage procedure to me, but I digress. I'd also like to point out that while what the cops did was wrong (or sounds wrong), there are points in your life where you get to be right... and it leads to you being dead right. As was posted by someone else, I think that there were a LOT of missteps on both parties parts.

A gun used for home protection, such as protection from intruders that can potentially harm an individual and his or her family, is useless if it cannot be accessed in a timely manner.

The missteps look to be completely in the hands of the law enforcement. Why? The citizen was protecting his house, and he is able to do so because it is one of the founding principles of our country. Pima County police not only violated his right as a citizen but also their own duty to protect and serve the citizens of their jurisdiction.

HiTempguy wrote: I'm curious as to why he just had an assault rifle lying around...

i'm curious as to why you'd think thats somehow illegal in Arizona, of all states?

not to mention that the article quotes the family's lawyer as saying "nothing they found in the home was illegal to own in Arizona". even the "part of a law enforcement uniform" was a US border patrol cap that you can buy just about anywhere....

Sounds like something Janet Reno's mitts would be on.... but then, ya know... ya never see Reno and Sheriff Dupnik in the same place... now do ya??

Hmm you might be onto something, remove the glasses and ... by god you are right

HiTempguy wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: It is not an assault rifle it is a tactical semi automatic rifle, and I have both an AK-47 and a pump action shotgun loaded and ready to go in my house. It is legal and I am trained in their use.

Sorry, as a Canadian, this is all sorts of odd to my little brain (sure, we have a couple of .22's in the garage, but that's not really the same thing).

I've spent time in in some "questionable" neighborhoods where we had a shotgun or two reachable just in case. It sounds bad on paper but when you live where people like to break down your doors and help themselves to your things you don't want them to do it without a fight when you're home.

A buddy of mine who served in the military and in Afghanistan saw the story and said this:

"Two tours in Iraq, 70 rounds, no medical attention? Someone knew/saw something they weren't supposed to."

Jay_W wrote: Yeah... they didn't announce that they were cops, they just snuck up to the house dressed in black. Like ANYONE is gonna take the chance that they're cops and not murderous thugs.

They turned out to be both.

John Brown wrote: I was not a Marine. I was never in a hot zone. I have not been in the position where I would be having cops crash through my doors. I do not know why a trained soldier would leave himself in such a tactically poor position once the E36 M3 hit the fan. The whole episode makes me sick. I hope there is some justice to come from this.

I think I can answer this. What was behind him in the room down the hallway that he was protecting? His wife and child. A man will do a lot of tactically incorrect things to protect the ones he holds dearest to him, especially their children. Ever cornered a been near a sow that has a litter and snag one of them? She will turn on you and destroy you to protect them. It's instinctual.

Came across this on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak

there's a full 6 seconds between the time the door is busted open and the first shot is fired. No calls out that they were police. They all fired into a house through a doorway.

So many protocols blown to hell here. I hope they are all tried for murder.

aussiesmg wrote: The problem here isn't the warrant, it seems to be a complete lack of research ... or was it deliberate.

The problem here is a retarded war on drugs that somehow makes a police state "OK".

"...deadly group panic..."

Groan.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: The problem here isn't the warrant, it seems to be a complete lack of research ... or was it deliberate.

The problem here is a retarded war on drugs that somehow makes a police state "OK".

Yep. And you can add the "War on Terror" as a great way to keep it up as more and more people realize the "War on Drugs" is stupid and counter productive. Gotta keep the people in line somehow after all.

Well, it's only retarded if you assume it's goal is to do anything about drugs. It's berkeleying brilliant if you assume (correctly) its goal is to strip rights and funnel money around.

Bobzilla wrote: Came across this on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak there's a full 6 seconds between the time the door is busted open and the first shot is fired. No calls out that they were police. They all fired into a house through a doorway. So many protocols blown to hell here. I hope they are all tried for murder.

I can not see the video from work so I am speaking a little blind here.

Six seconds is an awful short amount of time to collect the wife and kid then grab the AR15. Was there anything on the video that looked like they tried to announce themselves BEFORE the door was forced open?

When the police go into a situation hot they should not shoot first and ask questions later. If they do it should be treated criminally like Bob suggests. Look at the McVeigh, Dahmer even John Allen Huhammad arrests. Firepower in hand with known violent perps and 70 shots were not fired. The whole thing stinks of procedural ignorance and careless action.

Again I hope the family survives this horrible incident and the wife and kids eventually lead somewhat normal lives. I don't know how I would get through it.

This does make a good case for me to have a moat put in. I do not like surprises.

Bobzilla wrote: Came across this on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak there's a full 6 seconds between the time the door is busted open and the first shot is fired. No calls out that they were police. They all fired into a house through a doorway. So many protocols blown to hell here. I hope they are all tried for murder.

Oh my....

Speechless.

From what it looks lke (and the audio is horrible), the gathered in front of the door, then smashed it in, waited... waited, then started to enter, someone trips, a round is fired and then they all pile into the doorway and start shooting.

From the other story that I had read, the wife and child were already in the bedroom, he was asleep on the couch. When the door burst open, he grabbed the AR and crouched in the hallway between the entry door and the bedroom and that is when all hell broke loose. 6 seconds is an eternity when you are startled awake and the adrenaline is instantly flowing. Even more so if you are TRAINED to act.

Travesty.

In watching the helmet video I heard an alarm siren, possibly a car alarm, before the door was smashed open. That would give a person that is trained to act instinctively plenty of time to get a rifle and start toward the door. I hope these bastards are convicted and spend life in prison, the needle is too good for them.