Since the gun topic and Ukraine have been civilish how about

I have an uncle that smokes a preposterous amount daily, like ....Cheech thinks he should cut back by a lot level. He is very addicted to it but it's not because the actual substance is hugely addictive, before this he was an uncontrolled alcoholic and at one point was addicted to ice cream as well. 

Thats the reason why it's so hard to decide if it's something that needs to controlled for a lot of people IMO. As it turns out like with many other issues the true problem is people.

Personally I don't care what people do as long as it doesn't harm others. I personally have never even tried pot.

I do take CBD every day though to help with migraines,it helps an incredible amount. It's not the same as taking a pain pill nor does it get you high. Basically it takes away about 20 percent of the baseline pain away and helps me stop migraines before they get out of control. I went from 3 a week to 1 every other month

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

In California, legalized weed has in fact been a nice tax source for the cities...

I guess... but as with most things CA, there are side effects.   CA could not resist taxing legal weed heavily, making it expensive, the illegal stuff comparatively cheap, and the illegal weed grow and sell economy has BOOMED.  As in Mexican cartels running huge grow operations in various remote areas (using lots of water BTW), creating all sorts of potential issues (including things like human trafficking / effective slavery).

Then of course, there is the fentanyl, which has now been seen in weed!  I guess the upside of that is that it give you a good reason to buy at a legal store.

In reply to aircooled :

A friend lost his daughter to Fentanyl. Same age as my son. Wonderful girl. I'd held hope that someday she'd be my daughter-in-law.  That's evil, evil stuff. 

These things always have unintended consequences, and never work the way that you'd hope. As you say, there's a cadre of pot-bros making money on one end, and the cartels and other underground growers on the other. Things really haven't changed that much, except at least law enforcement resources aren't as wasted on victimless  crimes like pot use. 

In reply to aircooled :

I'm going to say it's very very unlikely that anyone is lacing Marijuana with fentanyl.  Just makes absolutely zero financial sense, would be awful for business, and practically terrorism for customers in practice. Sounds like the old wives tale that people are giving away their edibles to kids on Halloween. 

Also, sorry for the loss Kreb

LifeIsStout said:

frenchyd said:

aircooled said:

Frenchy.   Look into CBD.  I believe that is the primary aspect of pot that helps pain.  I don't think the THC part will help much, unless she wants the high.

CBD can easily be had in non-smoking form.  Tinctures etc.

Interesting, I again I hope it's relavent. I was thinking of getting my sister some Gummies. Drive to Colorado and get them.   
     My sister isn't a smoker.  Won't touch anything smoking.  She's not wanting to get high, just deal with the pain.  
   So I should look for Gummies with High CBD?   

I live in Washington state, one of the first places to make it legal (recreationally). I partake in edibles as I hate smoking, well anything. For your sister, if you go to a state where recreation is legal, just know that any of the edibles will have some small amount of THC (this is what makes it recreational). It also means that it is regulated and tested. Many of the off the shelf CBD products are not, so in this case I would actually trust something that has a high ratio of CDB to THC coming from a recreational place instead of anywhere else. I have used it instead of opiod painkillers and had good results after a surgery, allowed me to basically have 2 days of opiods and then change over. I will say that at least ofr me some pain it will not touch, like nerve pain from sciatica, but your mileage may vary. Gummies are fine, but I've had some fantastic chocolate items and currently have some mints that help promote sleep that I like.

That makes sense and is exactly why I'll drive to Colorado and find a well respected store who will guide me in my selection. 
 Yes it is legal here.  But new.   I'd prefer to deal with those experienced in helping me choose the right product  rather than sell what they have.  

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to aircooled :

A friend lost his daughter to Fentanyl. Same age as my son. Wonderful girl. I'd held hope that someday she'd be my daughter-in-law.  That's evil, evil stuff. 

These things always have unintended consequences, and never work the way that you'd hope. As you say, there's a cadre of pot-bros making money on one end, and the cartels and other underground growers on the other. Things really haven't changed that much, except at least law enforcement resources aren't as wasted on victimless  crimes like pot use. 

I was injected with Fentanyl following my fall.  The EMT's took one look at the place I fell from, my blood all over and heard me crying in pain.  
    It did a miracle!  Pain was instantly gone and rather than be carried out in a stretcher I walked down the stairs and climbed in the ambulance. 
 I was sweating profusely.  Bandages litterly   floated off my skin.   But no pain.   Two further injections occurred over the 36 hours I stayed in the hospital.  
    My brother-in-law self medicated his life away on his first experience  with Fentanyl. leaving  two little girls and a wife.  
    So I am totally in favor of using only trained medical staff to treat me with pain killers. 
     I understand cheap Chinese Fentanyl  is used to upgrade drugs that have weak or poor effects.  However who knows how much they are cut.  I darn sure wouldn't want to be someone's test dummy.  
         

johndej said:

In reply to aircooled :

I'm going to say it's very very unlikely that anyone is lacing Marijuana with fentanyl.  Just makes absolutely zero financial sense, would be awful for business, and practically terrorism for customers in practice. Sounds like the old wives tale that people are giving away their edibles to kids on Halloween. 

Also, sorry for the loss Kreb

I agree it does not make a lot of sense, but it was a story in the news, not a rumor.  Apparently it is actually a thing though, just do a search for Fentanyl laced pot and you will find many stories, here is just one:  

https://www.idahostatejournal.com/freeaccess/two-arrested-after-teenager-overdoses-on-fentanyl-laced-marijuana-in-what-police-call-dangerous-local/article_b767d85e-b8a0-575d-bc65-41581b2adb22.html

My wife also had a coworker who's son ended up in a psych hospital after some bad pot (probably laced, but probably not fentanyl?)

Of course a pot site claims all these reports are BS. It potentially could be cross contamination.  Fentanyl is SUPER potent and it would not take much at all.

In reply to frenchyd :

You can still save 4-6 hours each way by going to either Illinois or Michigan, both places where it's been legal medically and recreationally for years - 2008 and 2013 for medical, and 2018 and 2019 for recreational. I doubt the stuff you get in Colorado is any better or safer.

In reply to mtn :

But Colorado is so much nicer to look at. 

Beer Baron said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Dude. Dude. Dude. Just chill out. Dude.

It's just frustrating trying to have a decent discussion and be pigeon-holed by someone who seems to automatically think they know what you're going to say. Especially on a topic that I have first hand knowledge and experience with that is very important to me. For them to default to what is essentially political mud-slinging is very frustrating.

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

Could the increase in mental health issues that result in violence be related to the mass legalization and abuse of marijuana across the United States?

Is there an increase?

It's been legal country wide in Canada since 2018, and I can't find evidence of any increase in mental health issues that result in violence, and crime , overall, is down over that period.

In reply to aircooled :

I could imagine illegal pot and fentanyl getting accidentally mixed during the packaging process if the seller processes both. I work in the pharma industry and we go through a lot of effort (and expense) to avoid the mixing of products (FDA inspectors tend to fine companies heavily for it). Likely far more effort than a typical drug dealer network.

I grew up with alcohol and weed. My father was a heavy user of both during my entire childhood and it was not hidden from me. He would later become heavily addicted to opioids which cost him his second marriage.  As such, I've avoided weed since I was 13 and tend to limit my alcohol intake as well (I've found it really messes up my sleep).  Also, having an addict for a father has made me acutely aware of potential addictions and my (possible) hereditary inclinations.  Like last night after a long day of work, I really wanted a glass (or more...) of wine. That feeling scares me. 

Mental health is indeed a problem world-wide, but it seems to be even worse here in the US. We have such a strong culture of individualism that it can make any sort of mental health issues be considered a sign of weakness and a trait to be buried. Hence the aforementioned, "deal with it..." comment. I don't think our health care system helps with this at all. It definitely hasn't helped me very much. I've had too many experiences where I've spent a lot of money for little to no gain within our health care system.  This makes me extremely hesitant to seek help for my own mental health issues.  I've just watched the system fail me too many times. 

I suspect any increase in mental health issues related to legalized marijuana is more related to someone who already has problems and self-medicates.  Thus, marijuana is not the cause.  I agree we stigmatize mental health issues way too heavily in the US.  I think at the very least, some of our laws help keep it underground a bit, too (a few questions on the ATF 4473 cover mental health (psychiatric hospitalization) and drug use, and are automatic exclusions from purchasing a firearm).  The same people who might need the most help, are going to avoid it as much as possible if it means rights are taken away.  I would assume there are other interests/fields that will look negatively at mental health issues, when perhaps they shouldn't.

As others have said, it may not be the drug itself, but the person , who is susceptible to addiction in general.  Another reason we need better mental health resources.

All that said, I am in my 40s, never used weed.  I can't stand the smell.  Might be willing to try edibles, but they aren't legal in my state, and while my employer doesn't do random drug tests, other potential future employers do.  I'm all for legalization, but want to make sure impaired driving (and heavy equipment use in general) laws can cover drug use appropriately.

In reply to eastsideTim :

You could also be blocked from, or put at risk, a defense or high-sensitivity corporate job based on mental health, real or perceived. So there's a block that we, as a society, have put up. I'm not saying that we should allow compromisable people into sensitive positions but it does put a heavy stigma on seeking preventive treatment. 

As for testing, it blows. Plain and simple. We need testing to catch up to the point that we can positively, or near enough, say whether someone is currently impaired by cannabis rather than exposed sometime in the last *hand waving* period of time. That won't happen while it's Schedule 1 and, until it does, it blocks off any DoT job and breeds the cynical view that it's better to get blackout drunk on the reg than eat a brownie on your weekend. This is not healthy but, when you have people struggling and looking for an outlet to cope, the government, through prohibition, pushes people to alcohol. We all, I suspect, know what alcohol does when used as a coping mechanism.

The funny thing about these two issues, in my eyes, is how policy makers (general statement, trying to be apolitical) are against legalization, fetishize the military and vets, but quietly ignore us saying that pot is helpful and preferable to VA "treatment". Pot can be a very useful tool to help relieve some of this overbearing stress that we, as a society, heap on our shoulders. The stress that exacerbates mental health issues before we even get to the stigma. The stress that spills into violence. The disconnect, as evidenced by this conversation we are having, lies with policy makers and out-dated Reefer Madness and McCarthy era ideas about cannabis.  

Peabody said:

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

Could the increase in mental health issues that result in violence be related to the mass legalization and abuse of marijuana across the United States?

Is there an increase?

It's been legal country wide in Canada since 2018, and I can't find evidence of any increase in mental health issues that result in violence, and crime , overall, is down over that period.

 

^^^This. Since it's been legalized, the only downside I have noticed has been the awful smell that sometimes appears in the weirdest places in the city. Annoying, but harmless. The smell is actually why I've never tried it. It makes me gag.

I know people that have been heavy users since before it was legal and most of them are happy that it's legal. The fact that the quality is now government controlled seems to be a good thing because they all had stories of taking a dubious batch from an illegal source.

As far as mental health issues, I have been in and around the mental health world for nearly 10 years, and I believe a government led program can never succeed because they never start with the right reason. The goal of any good mental health professional is to help people to be happy. No government cares if their citizens are happy. They want them to be productive "successful" people. As long as we try to force people into that mold, we'll keep having serious mental health issues in our society. 

According to the Missus, yes there is a serious uptick in mental health emergencies at the psychiatric hospital level. Of course the world has an unlimited number of contributing factors adding to the various reasons any individual could be admitted but Kelly does say that the people coming off cocaine or meth are not nearly as aggressive or violent as those coming off marijuana. Her experience in the hospital over the last two years has overlapped her experience as an Investigator for Child Protective Services where she gets to see the best in people on a daily basis. Legal marijuana in a birthing mother's system is still a mandated CPS call. The number of cases that had clients in both settings was alarming, obviously she can not divulge details beyond a 45,000 view but when comparing key elements like violent tendencies, addiction, home life quality among other things a lot of similarities start to become clear.

There is anecdotal evidence of people who smoke pot becoming less motivated creating depression which enables more pot smoking which often creates less motivation to where the user becomes abusive in consumption and in violence.

One key from the NIH study posted earlier relates to addiction percentage increases with earlier starting ages. I can agree with this from experience, I've witnessed early adapters becoming addicts and late adapters handling the situation with control. 

In my opinion, and the reason I wanted everyone elses, is that we have a violence issue stemming from what is arguably a poorly managed mental and physical health care crisis (I'm lumping CoViD, Heart Disease, Cancer and Mental Health/Suicide all together for this point) that is inadvertently fueled by a combination of drug and alcohol abuse. 

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

Of course the world has an unlimited number of contributing factors adding to the various reasons any individual could be admitted but Kelly does say that the people coming off cocaine or meth are not nearly as aggressive or violent as those coming off marijuana.

This seems like totally insane Reefer Madness stuff to me. I'm pretty sure this is the first time in my life I've encountered the concept of a person becoming aggressive or violent when "coming off" marijuana. Is this confirmed by testing done to the patients, or could there be people on bath salts saying that they had only smoked some weed?

Edit: Or could they be using that synthetic weed/"spice" stuff which appears to have little in common with pot?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

In most cases Kelly states that the only thing the patients pop for is THC. They do a very diverse panel but the reason that I mentioned anecdotal is because I do not have empirical data for her cases. There is more NIH publications that support the statement.

NIH on marijuana and violence

Please take note that the study specifies that current strain potency is much stronger than previous strains which may be a partial agitator to those with predisposition toward paranoia and violence and with unfavorable cannabanoid receptors. 

Responding to OP:

I think it has more to do with social media echo chambers where people can hear exactly what they want to hear.

I do not believe that legalization has in any way increased marijuana useage, it just cuts down on the number of criminals we have.

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

In most cases Kelly states that the only thing the patients pop for is THC. They do a very diverse panel but the reason that I mentioned anecdotal is because I do not have empirical data for her cases. There is more NIH publications that support the statement.

NIH on marijuana and violence

That study relies on the exact same biases and mistakes involved in attempting to link SSRIs to mass shootings - it cherry-picks out a small set of violent criminals (and one guy who resisted arrest) with a history of marijuana use and attempts to blame the drug as a contributing factor in their violent actions, when most users of the drug haven't taken similar actions, most violent people don't have a history of above-average marijuana usage, and in many cases the criminal discussed tried to self-medicate with marijuana to treat known pre-existing mental health issues.

As a person who occasionally smokes weed and has been around a good amount of marijuana use, the idea of people coming off marijuana becoming aggressive or violent appears to be the most utterly ludicrous drug/side effect combination imaginable.

I have a theory that marijuana leads to bad craft beer. Craft beer drinkers are notoriously frequent pot smokers. Stone brewing was literally named after that.

People talk about marijuana enhancing flavors, but it doesn't do so equally. I find it accentuates textures and enhances fundamental flavors: sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and umami. That's what your tongue actually tastes. Everything else we perceive as flavor is aroma, and marijuana does *not* enhance that. (Hence why I like to sip gin and tonic while lightly stoned: cold, carbonated liquid feels nice, and there are nice sweet, bitter, and sour flavors.)

So brewers get stoned and enjoy the sensations of fundamental flavors - sweet and bitter - in their beer, and fail to realize that it lacks subtle and complex aromas.

GameboyRMH said:

the idea of people coming off marijuana becoming aggressive or violent appears to be the most utterly ludicrous drug/side effect combination imaginable.

Then you missed this one

There is anecdotal evidence of people who smoke pot becoming less motivated creating depression which enables more pot smoking which often creates less motivation to where the user becomes abusive in consumption and in violence.

Looks to be a bunch of anecdotal evidence based on anecdotal evidence.  Seems legit.

And let's be honest here. Marijuana use, and/or abuse does not meet the threshold of addiction, no more than gambling, or sex does. It's something that's talked about a lot, but it's not a real thing.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

This is likely impossible to prove or disprove but im going to give something a shot:

Without any drugs a very small percentage of the population has a propensity toward violence for [reasons]. This is an acceptable statement I believe. 

I will accept that people can act poorly on ANY substance including marijuana so it's not out of line ta accept that a VERY small percentage of marijuana users act poorly due to how their system processes THC. This is an acceptable statement I believe. 

If there is an increase in marijuana use from legalization of items containing THC [ Cato Institute report ] then the number of negatively affected users would likely also increase. 

I believe that the possibility that there is correlation, cause and effect in regards to an uptick in violence in general but in no way could it be directly related to anything as statistically small as a mass shooter or bomber. 

In reply to Peabody :

Depression isn't real either if you ask my father. Not baiting, I specifically stated it was anecdotal because I am repeating a front line individual but am not privy to published case notes. 

I am willing to accept new information, but saying marijuana is not addictive is ludicrously short sighted.

Marijuana is addictive in the same sense that gambling and World of Warcraft are addictive, but there are good medical reasons to say that it's not physically addictive.

There definitely is a tiny fraction of the population that have highly unusual reactions to marijuana which could include aggressive/violent behavior, but there's no way they're all filing into one hospital where one person can observe them. If you're testing people having very violent episodes and reactions for drugs, finding that when they test positive for a drug it's only THC, and then blaming THC for their violent reactions, there are at least 2 layers of selection bias involved there.