So much for salvation...

Although I'm not a JW, I do respect their resolve to reach out to their communities. I'm not fond of their particular tactics, but I admire their perseverance as I find it hard to be outspoken about being a Christian.

As some have mentioned, they feel they have been called to do such. I also think it is important to point out that part of the calling is to spread the joy they experience in their faith.

I know it isn't a great analogy, but imagine you stumbled upon a warehouse full of an arbitrary sports cars that are essentially brand new, but cannot be sold for another arbitrary reason; however, by simply taking delivery, you can have one free and clear (obviously, there are tax and registration implications, but that is beyond this analogy). The only catch is you can only have one, but there are an untold number available. Would you just drive around in your recent find content in the joy it brings you or would you want to share some of that joy with others by telling them what is available to them? Again, not the greatest analogy, but you get the idea.

JoshC wrote: I know it isn't a great analogy, but imagine you stumbled upon a warehouse full of an arbitrary sports cars that are essentially brand new, but cannot be sold for another arbitrary reason; however, by simply taking delivery, you can have one free and clear (obviously, there are tax and registration implications, but that is beyond this analogy). The only catch is you can only have one, but there are an untold number available. Would you just drive around in your recent find content in the joy it brings you or would you want to share some of that joy with others by telling them what is available to them? Again, not the greatest analogy, but you get the idea.

[Being fairly lighthearted here...]

That's great you found a warehouse full of fantastic European sportscars. You really should enjoy one. There's another similar warehouse nearby filled with Asian sportscars.

A neighbor of mine picked up one of the Japanese cars and swears by it. Absolutely loves that rotary engine.

For myself, I fabricated my own sportscar out of performance bits from a couple of different warehouses. I really couldn't go back to a single-marquee vehicle.

We all love our cars. It's fun to B.S. and bench race against each other. But there isn't a need for this to devolve into antagonistic Japanese vs. Italian fanboism.

Interesting twist on my already poor analogy. I was just trying, although maybe not elloquently, to say that I admire their ability to ignore what others think about them. I'm an individual that rarely cares what others think, but couldn't scrounge the nerve to do what they do.

I always try to be nice to people, even if I don't agree with their stance (unless they think Miatas are ghey or chick cars). JG, your story made me laugh though!

Appleseed wrote: "Have you found Jesus?" "I didn't know he was lost."

God was in the hospital in NJ for a while though, she sure does love Ski-ball.

I love that movie.

lawlz at J.G's story. While I generally try to show the utmost of common decency, if not downright southern hospitality to strangers, all of that goes out the window when someone shows up on my doorstep unannounced, friends and family included.

I used to be really tolerant of the 'pop-in' and run to the bedroom, throw a pair of shorts on, run downstairs and answer the door with a "how can I help you?" Now I've found that answering the door with the Pittsburgh game blaring, in my boxers, with a full 7&7 in my hand is an efficient way to run off pesky meddling in-laws.

As far as anyone trying to sell me anything; religion, politics, life insurance, etc. (I make an exception for kids selling stuff, as they've been put up to it,) my standard response now is "I don't want whatever it is that your selling, and I haven't seen your lost pet. You're trespassing on private property. Please leave before I call the cops." As red-faced as it makes Mrs. the Poo, I've had a 100% success rate with this plan so far.

I have a similar stance. In my opinion the "in your face" type of outreach of any denomination turns more people away and causes them to have a negative opinion of Christians in general. I personally don't believe the limited number thing.

I've never heard the limited number thing either.

Although the Puritans did believe that it is already predetermined who will get into heaven and who won't. So you continue to worship God and look for signs that you're favored. Usually those signs have to do with material success. So people who are more materially successful are inherently better people.

About a year ago, there was a discussion on this board about the number of people going to heaven being fixed. I’m pretty fuzzy on the details but apparently, some Dutch writings tell an account of Jesus informing one of his disciples or apostles or whatever that 55,000 people would go to heaven. At the time, I didn’t get the impression that the 55,000 was due to some finite capacity issue but rather, it was just known in advance how many people would meet the acceptance criteria to go to heaven.

BTW…the most conservative estimates of the number of people who have ever lived come in around 45,000,000,000 so with just 55,000 getting into heaven, your odds are a paltry 1 in 818,182. And of course, unless we're living in the absolute end times, our odds will continue to get worse and worse as additional people are born.

Dr Hess knows something about this subject so perhaps he’ll chime in.

From Wikipedia (yes, go ahead, flame on!):

Jehovah's Witnesses distinctly believe that only 144,000 people will be raised to heaven, and will thus spend eternity with God. They do not believe that this number necessarily comes from descendants of Jacob, but from early Christians, and those of Jehovah's Witnesses who profess to be "anointed" (or "spiritual Israel"). Witnesses believe that the 144,000 have been selected by God from the time of Jesus' apostles through to today. They believe that the 144,000 (those having a "heavenly hope") will reign with Christ in heaven, while all other people accepted by God will live forever on a paradise earth (an "earthly hope").

Anyone remember what the tallies for Heaven and Hell were in the South Park movie?

Salanis wrote: Anyone remember what the tallies for Heaven and Hell were in the South Park movie?

No, but the episode spoofing on Mormons was hilarious; easily matched the one on Scientology.

Hmm... will this JW paradise earth still contain all roadcourses in existence? Will we still have sportscars? That wouldn't be a bad gig... except that it would be rather crowded.

In reply to Datsun1500:

I specifically said I'm not a JW. My statement was that MY belief structure doesn't include the limited number thing.

Well, I didn't even notice this thread was still going, but since it is I'll chime in again. First, these people aren't selling anything. They are giving those mags away for free, so you can't whine aobut that. There are ways to (nicely and legally) keep them from coming to your door, and no, standing in your doorway like white trash holding booze and wearing boxers isn't it. I also don't get the people who think that showing up unannounced is rude. If a buddy of mine shows up unnanounced I'd be 100% delighted and invite them in, cook dinner and have a good time. Yes, these people aren't my friends but some in this thread specifically said friends and family are included in that group that would be considered to be rude to just show up. I'm glad MY circle of friends are better friends than that. I know quite a lot about this faith, having been born and raised (and since moved on) in the faith. Yes, they have some strange practices/beliefs but then, Jesus wasn't exactly fitting in in his day. If I remember correctly, something bad happened to him because of his beliefs and actions. Was he teased......or was that ridiculed..........oh yeah, he was killed. He showed up unnanounced, he talked about his beliefs to any and all who would listen and so on. Oh, and I thought JoshCs' analogy was great! I prefer to take the best parts of all those cars and make my own. I hope the great track stweard in the sky will like it.

Dude, all Jesus had to do was give the 10 minute heads-up call: "Dude, I'm in the neighborhood. If you're not procreating or anything, mind if I stop by?" I'd like to think that's how Jesus rolls anyway. Then again, your internet-tough-guy Jesus who runs around calling people white trash and bragging about how cool HIS friends are sounds pretty awesome too.

I only just saw your post DrBoost. In reply:

DrBoost wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: The magazine turned out to be a cleverly disguised copy of the Watchtower. They really didn't think out this religion very well at all, where you must annoy random strangers with your religion until all of society is sick of it. At least Christians tend to use better judgement with this sort of thing.

How was it disguised? Was it wearing a large nose and glasses? Trenchcoat and hat? Did not the HUGE "Watchtower" accross the top give it away? The other day I picked up an issue of Road and Track. Man was I ticked off! It was actually a disguised issue of Teen People! I didn't notice it said "Teen People" right on top, how dastardly!! BTW, JW's are Christian.

The magazine had a watchtower logo on the back. It had some other forgettable title on the front. There may have been a tiny watchtower logo somewhere on the front but I don't recall seeing it.

Also by "Christian" I meant "mainstream Christian"...I probably should have been more specific.

DrBoost wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: At least Christians tend to use better judgement with this sort of thing.

Better judgment? Is letting your clergy molest little boys then covering it up for decades better judgment? Is not only getting involved in, but in fact blessing wars better judgment? Now, I'm not bashing any one faith just because they allowed the clergy to be NAMBLA members or KKK members but let's get real here folks. These people aren't hurting anyone.

When I said "better judgement with this sort of thing," I was talking about introducing strangers to their religion. Again, I probably should have been more specific.

DrBoost wrote: Well, I didn't even notice this thread was still going, but since it is I'll chime in again. First, these people aren't selling anything. They are giving those mags away for free, so you can't whine aobut that. There are ways to (nicely and legally) keep them from coming to your door, and no, standing in your doorway like white trash holding booze and wearing boxers isn't it. I also don't get the people who think that showing up unannounced is rude. If a buddy of mine shows up unnanounced I'd be 100% delighted and invite them in, cook dinner and have a good time. Yes, these people aren't my friends but some in this thread specifically said friends and family are included in that group that would be considered to be rude to just show up. I'm glad MY circle of friends are better friends than that. I know quite a lot about this faith, having been born and raised (and since moved on) in the faith. Yes, they have some strange practices/beliefs but then, Jesus wasn't exactly fitting in in his day. If I remember correctly, something bad happened to him because of his beliefs and actions. Was he teased......or was that ridiculed..........oh yeah, he was killed. He showed up unnanounced, he talked about his beliefs to any and all who would listen and so on. Oh, and I thought JoshCs' analogy was great! I prefer to take the best parts of all those cars and make my own. I hope the great track stweard in the sky will like it.

What annoys me about the behavior in question is the underhanded way the conversation starts. I've never had a Jehova's Witness come to my door (or just up to me if I happen to be outdoors at the time) and say "Hi, I'm a Jehova's witness and I'd like to talk to you about my religion" or anything along those lines. It starts out as being about a new magazine, taking a survey, or in the last case I spoke about, a business proposal. Then at the end of the conversation, or afterwards, you find out what it was really about. Something you already knew about. And you just got tricked into getting the same proposal again. It's almost like rickrolling.

If I really thought Rick Astley was awesome and I started a thread about your favorite music and then lead to a rickroll video, and then next weekend started a thread about cool 80's haircuts and lead to a rickroll video, and so on and so forth, it would get annoying. Same thing.

GameboyRMH wrote: If I really thought Rick Astley was awesome and I started a thread about your favorite music and then lead to a rickroll video, and then next weekend started a thread about cool 80's haircuts and lead to a rickroll video, and so on and so forth, it would get annoying. Same thing.

You know we really need to put aside our differences. I think we can all agree that the purpose of this board is motorsports. We should be sharing our interest in performance driving.

Wouldn't you prefer to focus your energy on improving your driving skills so that you can one day stand on that podium?

I have a great video that will give you some ideas about performance car control. I think you'll really love it:
Video Link.

I think that is the evolution of rick rolling right there...

Years ago a married JW couple came knocking on my door with their message of truth, and I just happened to be in the mood to talk. I bade them to come and sit on my porch swing (a converted rear passenger seat from an '82 Chevy van), and the husband came up to have a seat, but his wife stayed in the yard just off the porch. I asked her to come and join us, but she refused. He explained that their wives were relagated to walking behind the husband, instead of beside him. This disturbed me on a number of levels, so I used that tidbit to lead off the conversation.

He and I talked for about 45 minutes, and every time he would try to steer the conversation to his religion, I would steer the conversation back to the ridiculous notion that a set of Christian beliefs would keep a wife from her husband's side, and what kind of religion would treat a loving relationship in such a cold manner, treating the female in such a caluous manner.

Eventually, their group came back by to pick them up. He thanked me for listening and talking to him (they are SO used to having doors slammed in their face), and they were off. I went back into the house, and didn't think much else about it, until...

About a month later, I was standing in line at a store, when a fellow spoke to me. "Do you remember us?", he asked. I turned to see this fellow and his lady in line behind me. I told him no, I didn't recognize him, but he did look familiar. Then he said " You and I talked on your front porch one morning." That's when I regconized them as the JW couple. He told me that our conversation had affected him deeply in the days following, and that after considering my stance on the JW position on female submissiveness, they had decided to leave the church and look for inspiration elsewhere.

They had come to my home hoping to convert me, and I ended up converting them! I'm not certain if that is a common occurance, but I suspect not, I have to say, it was one of the proudest moments of my life. If you coulda seen the smile on his wife's face as they hugged side by side, you woulda been proud too.

NYG95GA wrote: They had come to my home hoping to convert me, and I ended up converting them! I'm not certain if that is a common occurance, but I suspect not, I have to say, it was one of the proudest moments of my life. If you coulda seen the smile on his wife's face as they hugged side by side, you woulda been proud too.

Your conversion Fu is strong but now master become the student!

all kidding aside...that's one cool story. Good on that guy for being willing to open his head to new ideas as well as act on them. It also took some backbone on his part to approach you in the store and tell you as much.

GameboyRMH wrote: If I really thought Rick Astley was awesome and I started a thread about your favorite music and then lead to a rickroll video, and then next weekend started a thread about cool 80's haircuts and lead to a rickroll video, and so on and so forth, it would get annoying. Same thing.

not so much. because whether or not YOU believe it's true, THEY think that non-believers are judged and go to hell. Not liking Rick Astley doesn't have the same consequences. If I thought there was a bomb in your car I'd be sure to tell you. And hopefully you wouldn't be too pissed if I turned out to be mistaken. I don't blame them for trying. They usually mean well.

NYG95GA wrote: He explained that their wives were relagated to walking behind the husband, instead of beside him.

sorry, but that's just wrong. That is NOT a JW doctrine at all.