In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Progress Rail rebuilds a lot of units for this reason. The EPA even sets a limit how many can be rebuilt from your fleet. When I was a supplier I liked new orders as the rebuilds didn't get me big orders.
Those 710's were the Chevy small blocks for EMD, well, sort of.
https://www.railwayage.com/news/does-rebuilding-locomotives-beat-buying-new/
Another derailment. I've legitimately lost track, I think this is the 4th since Ohio?
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/train-carrying-hazardous-materials-derails-in-michigan
According to this Cleveland TV station article, FEMA assistance is continuing to be denied for the residents and surrounding area.
"The DeWine Administration has been in daily contact with FEMA to discuss the need for federal support, however FEMA continues to tell Governor DeWine that Ohio is not eligible for assistance at this time. Governor DeWine will continue working with FEMA to determine what assistance can be provided."
What the actual berkeley does it take to get assistance from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, if this doesn't qualify?
Is there something they're trying to hide here that declaring a disaster would reveal? I just can't understand what else would be preventing them from helping the locals out with this mess.
I'm not too far from this, but not directly impacted. However, my wife knows people that own houses very close to the derailment site. They are legit scared and looking for answers. The local paper has been ramping up the coverage over the last two days.
Mr_Asa said:Another derailment. I've legitimately lost track, I think this is the 4th since Ohio?
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/train-carrying-hazardous-materials-derails-in-michigan
Is it that they're happening more often or just that people are paying more attention? NS wadded two up in one day back in February (string-lined one train off the Rockville Bridge in Maryville, PA and derailed a coal train in West Virginia) and nobody in the news or political spectrum even batted an eye or gave it much coverage, because it wasn't the big buzzword.
NickD said:Mr_Asa said:Another derailment. I've legitimately lost track, I think this is the 4th since Ohio?
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/train-carrying-hazardous-materials-derails-in-michigan
Is it that they're happening more often or just that people are paying more attention? NS wadded two up in one day back in February (string-lined one train off the Rockville Bridge in Maryville, PA and derailed a coal train in West Virginia) and nobody in the news or political spectrum even batted an eye or gave it much coverage, because it wasn't the big buzzword.
There's usually multiple derailments a day. Thing is, it is usually a single car in a yard or a siding, and dealt with fairly quickly. I'd be curious to know if these bigger ones are happening more often or not. Based on the union's concerns, it sounds like there is at least the potential for larger derailments to be happening more frequently.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Progress Rail rebuilds a lot of units for this reason. The EPA even sets a limit how many can be rebuilt from your fleet. When I was a supplier I liked new orders as the rebuilds didn't get me big orders.
Those 710's were the Chevy small blocks for EMD, well, sort of.
https://www.railwayage.com/news/does-rebuilding-locomotives-beat-buying-new/
I'm heavily involved with this right now. The main limitation the EPA puts on rebuilds is the cost of the rebuild can't exceed a certain % of the total cost of the locomotive. So stuff like swapping power assemblies and installing new bearings is fine, as long as most of the hard parts (block, crank, etc) are reused. The cool thing about the 710 (and 645 and 567, earlier variants) is that the blocks are fabricated, not cast, so they can almost be overhauled indefinitely. I've watched welders build up material on bearing blocks so they could machine it back down to be within tolerance, and install new bearings.
Considering the 710 traces its roots back to the 1930's, the fact that they're able to get it up to Tier 3 emissions is pretty amazing. Turbo development, electronic unit injection, and low-oil consumption rings have made it quite a clean running unit- especially with the new ULSD. It's almost like T4 was invented to force the 2 stroke diesel into obsolescence...
Mr_Asa said:Another derailment. I've legitimately lost track, I think this is the 4th since Ohio?
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/train-carrying-hazardous-materials-derails-in-michigan
People in East Palestine, Ohio, say animals are saying and people are getting sick after a train derailment led to a chemical spill.
Whoa the animals are talking now!?!?
Indy - Guy said:According to this Cleveland TV station article, FEMA assistance is continuing to be denied for the residents and surrounding area.
"The DeWine Administration has been in daily contact with FEMA to discuss the need for federal support, however FEMA continues to tell Governor DeWine that Ohio is not eligible for assistance at this time. Governor DeWine will continue working with FEMA to determine what assistance can be provided."
What the actual berkeley does it take to get assistance from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, if this doesn't qualify?
Is there something they're trying to hide here that declaring a disaster would reveal? I just can't understand what else would be preventing them from helping the locals out with this mess.
CDC and HHS are showing up at least:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/us/ohio-train-derailment-east-palestine-friday/index.html
GameboyRMH said:Indy - Guy said:According to this Cleveland TV station article, FEMA assistance is continuing to be denied for the residents and surrounding area.
"The DeWine Administration has been in daily contact with FEMA to discuss the need for federal support, however FEMA continues to tell Governor DeWine that Ohio is not eligible for assistance at this time. Governor DeWine will continue working with FEMA to determine what assistance can be provided."
What the actual berkeley does it take to get assistance from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, if this doesn't qualify?
Is there something they're trying to hide here that declaring a disaster would reveal? I just can't understand what else would be preventing them from helping the locals out with this mess.
CDC and HHS are showing up at least:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/us/ohio-train-derailment-east-palestine-friday/index.html
Because it has to be declared a federal disaster, which the governor (rightly) doesn't want to do because it could absolve the train company of liability.
"There's some tension between declaring a federal disaster and having FEMA come in, then shifting the liability of this accident to the federal government, as opposed to the train company that actually caused the problem," Vance (Ohio Senator) told reporters.
In reply to Javelin :
Insert "Why Not Both?" meme here. Seriously. I don't see why bringing in FEMA to fix NS's incompetence in any way absolves NS from liability. If anything, they ought to be on the hook for FEMA's expenditures to make this situation right. You want to make corporations liable for their actions? Do that. "You screw up bad enough the Feds have to come in and clean up your mess? You're paying for it, then."
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Thanks for that CNN article, that was actually a good read. One question I have, we've discussed bearing monitoring hardware on trains; there should already be wayside hot bearing detectors- stationary sensors that check bearing temps as the trains roll by. In the ~1 hour time frame between the surveillance videos showing no evidence of the hot bearings, the video showing the axle sparking, and the point of the derailment, were there any wayside hot bearing detectors?
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Thanks for the insight. Always appreciated.
https://www.trains.com/trn/train-basics/abcs-of-railroading/defect-detectors/
"Detector spacing depends on each railroad’s preference and local conditions, but 20-30 miles is a typical interval on main lines. Employee timetables list the locations of hot bearing and dragging equipment detectors (abbreviated HBD and DED, respectively), along with their data-reporting methods."
Sounds like there definitely should have been at least one detector on the line that would have picked it up.
Unfortunately, the article goes on to say, "Relative to actual defects, false alarms are rather common."
EDIT: looks like it did drive through a detector: https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/what-caused-the-train-derailment/
"Graham says the train did drive through one of these detectors shortly before the derailment.
“The crew did receive a wayside defect detector, shortly before the derailment indicating a mechanical issue. Then an emergency break [sic] application was initiated,” Graham said.
However, the train was not able to stop in time. In a viewer video, you can see a wheel on fire as the train was still moving, just moments before it derailed."
For a 100+ car freight train, that's not surprising. It could take a mile or more to stop, depending on the speed. Plus, tossing in the stopping forces, train bunching, etc into an already failing wheel/axle/bearing could have contributed to the derailment.
Ironic, there's a gas station named "Leake Oil" right next to the site of the derailment.
Recent reviews:
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Javelin :
Insert "Why Not Both?" meme here. Seriously. I don't see why bringing in FEMA to fix NS's incompetence in any way absolves NS from liability. If anything, they ought to be on the hook for FEMA's expenditures to make this situation right. You want to make corporations liable for their actions? Do that. "You screw up bad enough the Feds have to come in and clean up your mess? You're paying for it, then."
I'm no lawyer or judge, but that's not what all the politicians on both sides have been saying. There's something in the laws that once it's a federal disaster, the feds are responsible for it. I did see this piece of federal disaster declaration referenced:
I mean I agree with you, I don't understand why that is the particular law nor why we can't have fema aid and nail NS to the wall, but that's just not how it is, which blows.
In reply to NickD :
Looking at the track map in E. Palestine, it looks like there's a couple of curves right there at the point of the derailment. Hot bearing, emergency brake application, and possible stringlining. It's a theory, anyway.
Have all the government officials who say it is safe to come on down and take a big drink of water. If they won't they must resign.
Regarding the disaster area declaration. It is pretty strange, especially considering they declared one in CA, because it RAINED too much! (yes, it was a lot of rain, but it's not the kind of rain that kills your pets and kids in a few years):
President declares major disaster in California for areas severely impacted by winter storms
https://abc7.com/joe-biden-fema-california-storms-emergency-declaration/12704073/
Indy - Guy said:This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
Show/hide post
Thanks guys. It's the first time (that I'm aware of) that one of my posts has been hidden. Didn't think hinting that American citizens should be held at least as high as foreign citizens would be controversial. It must've hit a nerve. <== should be read with a hint of sarcasm.
Has anybody seen stats on America vs Europe in terms of train safety and derailments?
I bet they do it better, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
EDIT: looks like they've got way more injuries and deaths than us, but that's likely because their ridership is dozens of times higher.
Perhaps we should compare freight train stats?
In reply to pheller :
Europe is pretty different. They tend to be more rail dependent for passengers, and truck dependent for freight. Pretty much the opposite of the U.S.
aircooled said:Regarding the disaster area declaration. It is pretty strange, especially considering they declared one in CA, because it RAINED too much! (yes, it was a lot of rain, but it's not the kind of rain that kills your pets and kids in a few years):
President declares major disaster in California for areas severely impacted by winter storms
https://abc7.com/joe-biden-fema-california-storms-emergency-declaration/12704073/
Based on some of the discussion above, I'm guessing it is because the rain was a natural disaster, so there wasn't a company that could be gone after for the losses.
eastsideTim said:In reply to pheller :
Europe is pretty different. They tend to be more rail dependent for passengers, and truck dependent for freight. Pretty much the opposite of the U.S.
The U.S. ships passengers by truck? 
Well, I guess the F150 is the best-selling vehicle in this country.
European freight trains are very much different. They tend to be shorter, faster, and often run on overhead catenary lines. You'd have to break it down by freight mile ton traveled or something, and even then, it would be kindof an apples-to-artichokes comparison.
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