Solar power ponderings. Considering DIY

Considering going solar.  This is a discussion to help me (and others) decide if it's a good thing.  Please let's avoid going off on a tangent about the politics of renewable energy, or why Priuses actually kill more rainforest than they save.  This is about a financial decision and a DIY option.

I reached out to some solar companies.  Most of them didn't get back to me at all, or they just tried to sell me a $40,000 system "but you get $7000 back in tax credits."  Yeah.  I did the math.  It would have taken me something like 103 years to make back that money in energy bills.

Trinity Solar got back to me with a proposal.  So far it's been all google earth and phone calls, but the next step would be an on-site visit to verify roof integrity, etc.  That actually might be a problem, but we'll cross that bridge.  They offered two options; a PPA (where they install and maintain for free and I buy back the juice for a bit less than my provider) or a finance option where I own them outright (they still install and maintain under the 25yr warranty, but I own the electrons.)  The other option is that I can take the free PPA install and I have the option to buy the system later at fair market value... which could be great or terrible.

I can post screen caps of all 8 pages of their proposal, but I won't unless you want to be bored.  Long story short, I wouldn't be saving much in total cash outlay with either plan compared to just buying it from my regular provider, which is reportedly (from sourcewatch)  47.4% from coal, 20.6% from nuclear, 17.8% from oil, 7.5% from hydroelectricity, and 7.1% from natural gas.  The warm fuzzies would come from the environmental aspect, not necessarily the financial aspect.

The company has tried to address most things, like if I need a new roof, they'll come remove and reinstall the panels while the work is being done.  They handle municipal permits, they monitor and maintain, etc.  But it seems like a lot of hoopla for no real savings in my pocket.

Still, I have wanted to do this for a long time.  Anyone DIY it?  I've seen videos of people who buy pallets lightly used panels for $3 and some pocket lint (not really, but they make it seem like they're practically free) and then screw them to their roof and miraculously have free juice, but there are very few credible sources I've found.  Living in PA, I know I won't get mountains of wattage that I can sell back to the grid, but if I could get enough to at least supplement what I draw off the coal-burning grid, I'd feel like I did something, and DIYing it could present a significant cost savings.

So that's my rambling.  I wanna solar.  I know there was a thread a few months ago about it but I couldn't find it.   Who has DIY'd?  Who has gone with a freebie?  Who has bought?  Your thoughts?

The shop that works on my Samurai DIY'd an off-grid setup with some cheapo Chinese panels and Leaf battery modules (at one point they were using a bunch of 12v deep-cycle lead-acids), no professional electricians involved, so it's doable, but in many ways that setup is simpler than one that ties in with your power grid connection. It sounds like you want to maintain your grid connection so you should definitely have a professional electrician involved. With a 72%+ fossil-powered grid there's a lot of environmental gains to be had. You want to use as much of the power you generate on-site as possible rather than selling it to your power company, because they pay way less for the electrons you sell them than they make you pay for the ones they sell to you.

The home solar installation market is mostly oriented toward ripping off yuppies by selling them $40,000 systems, so you'll have a hard time finding good deals with them. You may want to check out companies that specialize in farming or industrial systems since their buyers are concerned with turning a profit.

I've lived off grid for decades and DIY a small system.

New panels are cheap as hell and it's incredibly simple to do, Amazon has 100w panels for about $55 recently.

Panel prices are in free fall. I'd seriously consider DIY if I were doing it again. I would definitely check permitting and rebates - does the 30% federal credit require professional installation? Does your utility?

One nice thing about a DIY array is that you don't have to build it all at once. I know there are some good YT channels on DIY solar like Will Prowse. You'll definitely have to decide if you want storage or just a grid tie, your utility will be a big factor there. 

And that $55 panel will power a bit less than the cigar lighter port in your car. On its very best day. For a few hours. 
To Curtis : to the wording of you question - solar is always a good thing. Just not a financialy good plan. YMMV. (But not without ignoring a few laws of physics). Although we're getting better. 

In reply to 03Panther :

I run my camper off a 100W panel :)

Doesn't really help Curtis, though. Have you figured how big you want it to be?

03Panther said:

And that $55 panel will power a bit less than the cigar lighter port in your car. On its very best day. For a few hours. 
To Curtis : to the wording of you question - solar is always a good thing. Just not a financialy good plan. YMMV. (But not without ignoring a few laws of physics). Although we're getting better. 

But it also requires no other cost besides the panel for it's life.

Solar is significantly cheaper that it has been too

Panel prices dropped by 30-40% last year, apparently. 
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/26/solar-panel-prices-down-30-40-in-2023-us-prices-down-15/

I'm 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I'm here to learn, because I am interested and could have the opportunity to do it soon. 
 

Curtis, get out of my head! 

Solar is a bit of a meme if you live in an area where there are no Buc-ee's.  Just not enough solar intensity to make the numbers work out unless you have some crazy high utility rates AND a perfect exposure.  

But it is good for the feelz and the gee-whiz of it.  Same reason there is a PHEV in the stable.  Not a financially sound decision but it is cool and different.  

Very interested in a DIY system, mostly because my electric bill is high.

We have an ideal spot. A big, south-facing slope behind the house with no trees that gets sun the whole day, even in winter.

My issues here are cost and ROI. I live in the Great White North where everything is pretty much double the price of what you guys pay down there in Freedomville. We're at 50 degrees north which might affect production but I doubt it. Our days are long even though the sun is low.

You might try EnergySage (https://www.energysage.com) as a comparison point before deciding to DIY. I got four decent quotes for my place, but decided not to move forward due to my usable roof area being a bit too small (I could only get to about 55% of daily usage). Combined with relatively cheap WA per-kWH rates and it just wasn't worth it to have a 15+ year payback. I may yet put in a whole-house battery system, as we get power outages more frequently than I'd like due to all above-ground utilities.

https://diysolarforum.com

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

Ok, but I live and work where ALL the Buc-ees are!! 

Google made this years ago

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

it shows how large your roof  using Google earth maps , 

My house has too many trees and a big apartment building next door that shields the roof much of the day.

and you might use a browser "Private Window"  because there is a good chance google will sell your address to Solar companies .....

Re the PPA option, that would be a hard nope from me. The big issue with that is that you basically end up with another liability that a potential buyer would have to assume, which doesn't make your place easier to sell if it comes to that. And even if you're not planning to sell anytime soon, who knows what's going to happen over the lifetime of the PPA?

Oh, and otherwise I'm in for the info as I've got plenty of south facing roof on both the shop and the house.

In terms of costs, depending on what  configuration you want, the storage will be the most expensive part.  Panels are not all that expensive anymore- you can even get them that are already set up to time their sine wave 120V to the grid.  And there are multiple panels out there that integrate everything into one box for control and inversion.  And I think some even have the ability to hard switch during a power outage.

Basically, time has made the systems more and more simple.

IIRC, panels crossed below the $1/W a few years ago, but it's a good baseline- so $10k of panels will get you 10kW.  Without storage, the next big cost in the inverter/control panel- those are too bad- Sungold has 12kw inverter system for $2500.

Which makes me very much question the $40k systems that people are trying to sell.

There are two types of solar energy that should be considered. I'd encourage anybody considering DIY solar to visit the NREL website for monthly maps of solar energy intensity. In Jan, it's low for the entire continental US, and in July, almost everywhere in the lower 48 gets good solar energy. It just comes down to the months in between, and how much can be produced for a given location at a given time.
Annual averages for reference:

If you live east of the Mississippi River, and north of the Mason-Dixon, you'd better have a really efficient house (low demand) and a really inexpensive solar system or the math gets ugly. If anybody can make it work, it's this group.

In reply to STM317 :

Those are depressing maps.  Not because of the low numbers from our area- but what they really mean- lots and lots of clouds.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Have you worked the numbers to see what you need?  The people giving quotes did they quote how many watts in panels or did they just say it'll meet you needs?  I'll give you my example that I'm in the middle of doing. 

Current house 1950s build very inefficient.  I average about 30kwh a day. My new build is going to be very efficient but I like over kill so I'm designing the new system to the old house usage. I'm off grid so I have to have battery. That's not a requirement for you. Just equipment wise I have ten 440 watt panels and stackable inverters that will do 220v and 6kw. Very basic system for the home. I can add more inverters if I need to or more panels. I don't have the bill in front of me but that came in around $3k. How much of that 30kw a day can it cover?  Let's do the math. 

440watts x 10 x 6 hours sun a day = 26.4kwh a day

I'm conservative so I plan 4 hours of sun a day.

440watts x 10 x 4 hours sun a day = 17.6kwh a day

As you can see I'll need more panels when I finish my build. 

I'd suggest doing the research of how much you need first. Do a system that'll lower your bill but not cover it all. You're not going to get rich selling solar power. Add on later if you need to. 

I got my stuff from https://signaturesolar.com/.  They were good to deal with other than they don't understand opt out of all emails. 

In reply to alfadriver :

I think most systems (the inverter?) need a grid to form the AC output. If the grid goes down, so does the array. So having an isolating switch doesn't help unless you've got a battery system that can form a microgrid. 
 

That cleanTechnica article I posted implies that despite the drop in panel prices, array costs went up slightly due to an increase in labor costs. That's where some of the difference between a diy and a professional install comes from - you've got someone trying to make a living designing, permitting, building and reselling the systems. Which is fair enough, it costs more to have a mechanic fix your car than to fix it yourself too :)

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The solar panels that have the inverter built into them need some kind of signal to sync up to, if that's what you mean.  And the grid tie inverters also sync to the grid as well.  But as long as you have a switch to take the system off line, the system can provide power during outages.  Not a cheap switch what so ever, and required by law.  But they exist.  

As for the costs, that's why it's important to know what you are paying for.  We got a rough bid to add a few feet to our porch last summer for $65k.  I know there's a lot of regulation involved and some design work to it.  But between that and the labor to install it, not $60k worth of labor.  As far as I'm concerned, I would want to do the math for this, too.  Does it *really* take that specialized of labor to install the mounts?  The electrical work is rather nominal, as far as I can see.

In reply to STM317 :

According to an online calculator I use something like 14-17kwh a month. Ive used Trojan t105s for years and a set of 4 costs about $800. I have an old modified sine wave inverter that comes very cheaply nowadays and 1k in solar panels. Propane appliances so no power draw there 

I do run a generator in winter, up here there just isn't enough sun but summer it's decent. I didn't really invest heavily in panels because I live in a pretty deep forest.

It's totally doable to have a small system but it means you have to conserve energy and bluntly......most won't.

In reply to alfadriver :

Roof mounting panels and wiring them is quick and easy from what I've seen. I was thinking more about the supporting wiring - in our case, it was several new meters as required for installations over 10KW. I forget what they all are although I know there are three on the side of the shop and the house meter also needed to be changed. But I don't know all the costs, I'm just saying that comparing stripped down DIY to a commercial operation always makes the latter look expensive. Until you're the pro :)

A grid forming inverter would be a nice thing, the biggest complaint I have about our setup is the fact that we can't use it during an outage.

In reply to ShawnG :

Shawn I will there's a number of solar set ups here in QB. A lady down the street is electric heat, hot water and cooking - her hydro nets to zero over multiple years.

Curtis you could try small scale DIY as a test - a panel or two a couple of batteries and power up your entertainment area out back and move on from there.