Solve the worlds problems- energy storage

The hybrid thread over on the main side that has gotten seriously off track really focuses a key technology that could save billions:

Energy storage/ recovery.

In a car, when we brake, we take all of the vehicles energy into heat. In the same car, due to inefficiencies in the engine, we lose heat out the exhaust and the cooling system. (note- hybrids generally take the braking energy and try to store it- that's the core benefit from them)

At home- for many of us, there's ample warm weather in the sumer to heat the house in the winter. Conversely, there's plenty of cool in the winter to cool the house in the summer. Both are primary energy users in a house.

Sun/Wind- as have been pointed out, both are incredibly variable. How can I store excess energy so that I don't need to bring a gas turbine on line when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing?

And with all of that- how do you change heat into electricity in a manner that is cost effective?

IMHO, I would be happy to spend tax $$ on research to solve that problem, but being how big potential is out there, I'm willing to bet that there's more than enough venture capitolists who will fund you if there's real evidence of being able to do it.

So brain storm away. No bad ideas.

Why don't you tell your boss to expand the Ultra Capacitor stuff, or have the military stop buying all the existing ones for weapons platforms for a couple years?

If I could just get my hands on a Flux Capacitor I would be most of the way there.

alfadriver wrote: No bad ideas.

Challenge Accepted!

What is the feasibility of having a giant thermos under your house? Well-insulated, and with enough thermal mass that if you spend all summer chucking your extra heat at it that you can withdraw it in Winter? Sort of a giant thermal capacitor?

I'm guessing there's a lot of difficulty in this, just in terms of making a large, stable reservoir with an excellent insulator (or vacuum) around it that will stand up over time. The cost of a stainless box that size alone would be quite large. But perhaps there are approaches that aren't occurring to me.

This was actually phase two after my initial thought, which was... I guess you'd call it bidirectional geothermal. I'm not sure with the temperatures we're talking about whether it makes any sense to try to deposit that energy back into the ground. I'm going to stop before I give a treatise on how obviously I don't understand geothermal systems.

Dr. Hess wrote: Why don't you tell your boss to expand the Ultra Capacitor stuff, or have the military stop buying all the existing ones for weapons platforms for a couple years?

If they have real potential, there's no reason why one can't supply the military and private. Somehow, we manage to have enough industry in the US to supply all of the military, and still have enough left over to make cars.

I know you jest, but seriously, solving heat energy storage/coversion/ etc- huge potential.

Here- in a car, if you could take 50% of the exhaust heat and turn it into useable power, that would increase fuel economy by 50%. Or 25% from exhaust, 25% from cooling- same thing.

there's oodles of potential energy out there.

ransom wrote:

alfadriver wrote: No bad ideas.

Challenge Accepted! What is the feasibility of having a giant thermos under your house? Well-insulated, and with enough thermal mass that if you spend all summer chucking your extra heat at it that you can withdraw it in Winter? Sort of a giant thermal capacitor? I'm guessing there's a lot of difficulty in this, just in terms of making a large, stable reservoir with an excellent insulator (or vacuum) around it that will stand up over time. The cost of a stainless box that size alone would be quite large. But perhaps there are approaches that aren't occurring to me. This was actually phase two after my initial thought, which was... I guess you'd call it bidirectional geothermal. I'm not sure with the temperatures we're talking about whether it makes any sense to try to deposit that energy back into the ground. I'm going to stop before I give a treatise on how obviously I don't understand geothermal systems.

I seriously think that's a good idea. Even limit to just the heat side- there's ample heat in most attics to remove and store for the winter.

Well, you read about my solar collector. There are guys that do the same thing but heat with water. They then take that water and run it into a tank in the basement (usually) that is filled with river rock. They say this river rock will store heat for long enough to get usable heat through the night. We're not talking 'throw your furnace away' heat, but enough so that they can heat the house in the day, and store enough to suppliment over night. That's substantial when you are talking about maybe a ton of rock, and what 6-8 hours of usable solar heat.
Just throwing some fertalizer ($hit) out there for smarter folks to think about.....

In reply to DrBoost:

It's a good start, that's for sure.

I saw an article in Smithsonian about wearable generators. The military was testing it with a whole platoon who come back from a march and transfer their personal capacitor to a larger battery. It immediately made me think a weight, spring, winding and a cap could be worn when I run to charge up cell phones or power other devices.

Then I started thinking I could drive a small generator off water pressure when the shower, washer and dish washer are running...

Then I finished crapping, put the magazine down and forgot all about it.

I think the challenge is to figure out how to turn small heat differentials into energy that can be more easily stored. I would imagine that the amount of heat required to heat a home all winter to 70 from a storage device that is sub 120 would he prohibitively large. Perhaps someone could calculate the amount of energy we need to store to determine if it is even possible.

I had an idea a while back. Looking at those flashlights you shake to make power in order to make light. I was thinking about all the travel up and down that shocks, springs, etc. do while driving. Then I thought about the lateral movement of the vehicle and thinking about the old mercury bars used for weight transfer in racing (illegal). My mind started working on the possibility of using something like that to generate power and if it would even be worth it.

Then I looked at pielter devices or thermoelectric coolers. I know they have a limited heat tollerance, but using them on a radiator, engine block, transmission cooler, transmission, differential, etc. in order to draw heat out and convert it to energy.

The thermoelectric cooler also had me thinking about an alternative ac/heater system using a recirculating liquid cooler. The voltage just reverses to go from cool to hot. Just replace the existing heater core and ditch the evaporator core and all the AC stuff. There goes weight and parasitic powertrain loss. You also just got rid of refrigerant which is harmful to the environment (blah blah blah).

This system could also be self sustaining. The thermoelectric coolers will CONSTANTLY produce power from simple heat transfer. So when it's 80,000 degrees outside, the devices are just producing power and you can have the interior of your car pretty much a constant temp. This is all in theory of course and I've yet to determine the BTUs needed and BTUs capable from such a device.

As for storage... I'm at a loss.

ransom wrote:

alfadriver wrote: No bad ideas.

Challenge Accepted! What is the feasibility of having a giant thermos under your house? Well-insulated, and with enough thermal mass that if you spend all summer chucking your extra heat at it that you can withdraw it in Winter? Sort of a giant thermal capacitor? I'm guessing there's a lot of difficulty in this, just in terms of making a large, stable reservoir with an excellent insulator (or vacuum) around it that will stand up over time. The cost of a stainless box that size alone would be quite large. But perhaps there are approaches that aren't occurring to me. This was actually phase two after my initial thought, which was... I guess you'd call it bidirectional geothermal. I'm not sure with the temperatures we're talking about whether it makes any sense to try to deposit that energy back into the ground. I'm going to stop before I give a treatise on how obviously I don't understand geothermal systems.

You're basically talking about a geothermal heat pump. No need to get complicated, just dig you a hole. The earth is your thermos.

As for energy storage from solar/wind - one interesting proposal I've heard is to use the excess energy to pump water into a reservoir. When demand outstrips supply, use the stored water for hydroelectric power generation. The cool thing about this is the fact that the stored potential in the water doesn't decay and it's quick to ramp up in response to demand. It's also using mature technology - we know how to pump water Of course, it would work better in Colorado than Nebraska.

nderwater wrote: Practically every device, appliance and system I use each day produces heat as a by-product. If someone ever come up with a cost-effective technology to convert waste heat into electricity, we could transform the earth.

See my book up there about thermoelectric coolers. That's exactly what they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

In reply to nderwater:

How efficient/inefficient/expensive are peltier junctions?

EDIT: Looks like Conquest351 was way ahead of me...

ransom wrote: In reply to nderwater: How efficient/inefficient/expensive are peltier junctions? EDIT: Looks like Conquest351 was way ahead of me...

Great minds my friend.

Conquest351 wrote: See my book up there about thermoelectric coolers. That's exactly what they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

Thanks - I had the thread open too long and missed the in-between posts. It's always awesome to click the submit button only to see that your comment just echoed what half a dozen people have already said.

While developing and perfecting the new technology is certainly a necessity, I think a bigger issue is a cost-effective solution for existing structures.

For example, there are a proportionately large number of homes in our small town and surrounding rural area that have basically just been abandoned, and usually left to deteriorate to the point of needing demolition. This seems to often happen after an elderly person has died/moved out of the property, and due to VERY low property values, it just isn't cost-effect to renovate the property to be energy efficient, yet the utility cost to live there negates the low property price.

Personally speaking, in the building we're remodeling I'm installing a total of R-34 insulation in the ceiling, new windows, high-efficiency furnaces & water-heater... and sealing every crack in the brickwork I can find. Fortunately, we bought the property cheap enough that we can invest in it, and still recoup our investment should we decide to sell.

Unfortunately, in the home we presently live in(built in 1878), we're $20k upside down - still - after everything tanked in '07, and while I've done the cheap upgrades(like more insulation in the attic), there are so many leaks and drafts through the walls(even after drilling holes and blowing cellulose into them) that our heat-loss is enormous. It does me no good to invest into fixing this place, knowing that we'll be moving into the remodeled place soon. I'll rent it out, let someone else pay the utilities, and write off any repairs on my taxes.

Just slightly off topic, but last time I was in Las Vegas I was shocked that all the casinos are still totally covered in incandescent light bulbs. Imagine the energy savings if they all switched to LEDs.

Harrahs AC LEDs

All LEDs.. costs about $100 a night to operate

Conquest351 wrote:

ransom wrote: In reply to nderwater: How efficient/inefficient/expensive are peltier junctions? EDIT: Looks like Conquest351 was way ahead of me...

Great minds my friend.

I strung those together to get to here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Thermoelectric_Generators

interesting. But now I also know why the ones I've seen were water cooled.... (assuming wiki is right...)

getting rid of the radiator and using ceramics that can handle the temperatures of internal combustion would let you use more of the generated heat to produce propulsion
http://ceramicrotaryengines.com/
http://www.ultrahardmaterials.co.uk/engine.html
(too bad they're too expensive and brittle)

Tangental:
This was a bad idea.

OTOH, doing this and using nuclear generated electricity to deal with the aluminum oxide is a good idea.

The heat into electricity is simple - steam turbines. The issue is capturing the heat.

As Keith noted geothermal cooling or heating is already known. From about 3 ft down and for quite a way the ground stays at about 40 F year round (at least in my area). The problems are known:

1) You need space or

2) You need to go with deep wells (600 ft. +)

3) The up front costs are high

4) No one knows what would happen if everyone started doing this what we would do to ground temps.

5) There are significant concerns that we expose ourselves to groundwater contamination by doing this.

Here's another idea...

Thorium.

http://www.txchnologist.com/2011/the-thorium-laser-the-completely-plausible-idea-for-nuclear-cars

http://laserpowersystems.galacticmassive.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=53

re- geoexchange heat pumps. Those don't actually store heat, they use the constant temp of the ground, and the overall length as a way to generate both heat and cool in a heat pump circuit. It would be nice if they could, but they don't really do that.

There are homes in my area that use $2-300 worth of electricity per year to heat ,or cool the living space. They are all using geothermal heating systems of one sort ,or another, and all are built to LEEDs platinum standards. I was in one that was capable of maintaining a minimum ambient temperature of 55* with the heating system turned off.