Sprockets: Starter sport bike?

therex wrote: I assume your live in canadia?

No, Canada

As far as I know, the 125 still is not available in the US. Even though I decided on something else, I would still buy one for the right price.

ProDarwin wrote: 1. What reviews have you been reading? Granted I haven't read any of the 250, but every one of their larger bikes had reviews that make me want to stay far far away. 2. How is a V-Twin any better than a parallel other than packaging?

1. A few random forums. Nothing from a magazine, that I recall. Basic consensus seemed to be it's an ok bike. If you can get it heavily discounted, worth the money, but at MSRP, get the Ninja.

2. They tend to make more torque at lower RPMs than the parallel twins.

Yeah, if that Hyosung said Kawasaki or Suzuki on the side of it, I'd be a lot more interested. As it is, I've never even SEEN a Hyosung bike, let alone a dealer. But hey, maybe you can find a used one for half that on CL. Then start looking for another one so you'll be able to get parts to keep it running .

CrackMonkey wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: 1. What reviews have you been reading? Granted I haven't read any of the 250, but every one of their larger bikes had reviews that make me want to stay far far away. 2. How is a V-Twin any better than a parallel other than packaging?

1. A few random forums. Nothing from a magazine, that I recall. Basic consensus seemed to be it's an ok bike. If you can get it heavily discounted, worth the money, but at MSRP, get the Ninja. 2. They tend to make more torque at lower RPMs than the parallel twins.

Thats in cam/head design. A V is not going to make any more power than a parallel. Actually, their uneven firing pulses are very NVH unfriendly.

V-twins are typically undersquare, which gives them a broader, lower rpm torque curve, which makes it easier to pull off the line smoothly. I suppose you could build a parallel with these characteristics, but parallel bike engines tend to be higher revving oversquare designs, I assume for efficiency and packaging reasons.

Edit: This is a really good article if you are interested in the characteristics of the v-twin: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/vtwin_engine_technical_info/index.html

therex wrote: A 250 streetfighter is a great idea...500 is even better. I'm very tempted to do an F4i streetfighter when I outgrow the chickenhawk, since Honda says I won't buy a Hornet 600. Fine Honda, if you won't sell it to me I'll build it myself.

therex......Um.....you do realize that the Hornet 600 was sold in the US. It's called a Honda 599, similar to the Hornet (CB900F) being renamed to the 919 here in the US. My last bike was a 919, I loved the looks but didn't care for the ride. Well, I mostly loved the looks, the headlight was hard to look at but I didn't own the bike long enough to bother with it (the undertail/fender eliminator was already done when I got it).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140238709348 (ended auction for price reference) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290238451506 (current auction)

They're relatively rare, only sold in the US for 2 model years (compared to many years for the 919) but since they're "just" a Honda they don't seem to have a cult following as much as something like Ducati or Aprillia would have for similarly rare bikes. Here's a comparison of the two model years:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3000

Bryce

Hey, these tiny reply boxes are fun ;-) The 599 was sold here, but has not been updated to the current generation European Hornet... in fact Honda's US website still lists the '06? bike as the "current model"

Nashco wrote: therex......Um.....you do realize that the Hornet 600 was sold in the US. It's called a Honda 599, similar to the Hornet (CB900F) being renamed to the 919 here in the US.

As my esteemed associate gearhead_42 pointed out, a 599 does not a hornet make.

I do not want an F3 powered naked bike fueled by metered leaks. I want a fuel injected midrange-tuned 600RR motor with high, wide bars and low, forward controls.

The 599 was a joke. A heavy steel frame, an ancient engine, and a rediculous price. c'mon! That's not what I want! I want a Hornet 600.

Now, the 919 was better, but it's too big for me.

What's even more absurd is that an F4i is, generally, easier to find and cheaper to buy than a 599. I can take an F4i, take off the fairings, put on bars and lower pegs for cheaper than I can buy a 599. And this gets me more horsepower, better fuel economy, less maintenance a more modern engine and fuel injection.

So while I appreciate your point, the 599 was a stupid idea that Honda set up to fail from the get-go.

Of course, it seems like every manufacturer has pulled their middleweight nakeds except for Yamaha.

The Z750 is gone, the Bandit 600, gone. 599, gone. :( It's very sad. And yet the Street Triple can't be kept in stock. Something doesn't compute.

therex wrote: ...And yet the Street Triple can't be kept in stock...

Many Triumph dealers had their alloted 08 Street Triples cancelled & subsequently had to return deposits to unhappy potential buyers. Why? Ask Triumph why they diverted USA alloted Street Triples to Europe & Asia. Is the exchange rate a coincidence? Maybe we'll see some stateside as 09 models...

therex wrote: The 599 was a joke. A heavy steel frame, an ancient engine, and a rediculous price. c'mon! That's not what I want! I want a Hornet 600.

I thought the 599 was the same as the Hornet 600 the UK got, they just stopped giving it to the US when they redesigned it with the RR engine ('06 in the UK?). I wasn't much interested in the 599 when I got my 919, but after having the 919 perhaps I should have been. The power/torque of the bigger engine was too much for the crummy suspension/frame. Mine was the earlier barely-adjustable suspension 919, FWIW, the later ones with fully adjustable suspension are supposed to be better in that they're at least tuneable.

Bryce

anyone know anything about a VTR 250 honda? good bad indifferent. I'd kill for a cbr125.. Perfect for a 6 mile back road(read 35mph speed limit) commute.

...anyone know anything about a VTR 250 honda? good bad indifferent. I'd kill for a cbr125.. Perfect for a 6 mile back road(read 35mph speed limit) commute.

Ahh, the ChickenHawk... VTR250 ChickenHawk

I remember it as really small.

Nashco wrote:

therex wrote: The 599 was a joke. A heavy steel frame, an ancient engine, and a rediculous price. c'mon! That's not what I want! I want a Hornet 600.

I thought the 599 was the same as the Hornet 600 the UK got, they just stopped giving it to the US when they redesigned it with the RR engine ('06 in the UK?).

Well, yes. I guess that's my point. The 599/Old Hornet sucked, a purposeful move by honda to use the cheapest parts and the crappiest leftovers they had...so when they finally decide that it'd be cooler if they didn't do it, they decide that maybe Americans wouldn't like it anyway, because they didn't buy the crappy one.

I mean, it's a naked bike. It's easy. Take a sportbike, give it different cams, take off the fairings, move the pegs, replace the clipons with bars. Done! I purposefully didn't add "Take two steps back on our engine, frame, and suspension technology" because it doesn't belong there.

therex wrote: I mean, it's a naked bike. It's easy. Take a sportbike, give it different cams, take off the fairings, move the pegs, replace the clipons with bars. Done! I purposefully didn't add "Take two steps back on our engine, frame, and suspension technology" because it doesn't belong there.

Well, I don't mean to continue bugging you, but it's actually quite involved because (mostly for styling purposes) it's got different exhaust, lighting, fuel tank, suspension tuning, etc. On top of that, if you want to offer it in the US that means you also need to have US-specific parts, emissions testing, sound testing, lighting testing, etc. for homologation. Considering the 599 barely moved out of the showrooms, I don't blame Honda for not bringing the new Hornet 600 here, if anything I'd say I do blame them for doing a piss-poor job of moving the 599 in enough volumes to make all the homologation and engineering time worth the hassle (which then led to them deciding future models wouldn't sell here). At low volumes, they're just way too expensive compared to other bikes.

As you said, the UK likes naked bikes a lot more than the US. Personally, I think it's a demand problem (not a supply problem). Sure, some people would buy the good ones if they were sold here, but not many. I thought the 919 would be better than it was, that was a bit of a let down coming from Honda, I thought my F3 was a much better bike. My Buell is also a much better bike than the 919, and I'd venture to say if you're interested in naked bikes and haven't been on a Buell XB, give it a shot. The handling is awesome, very responsive and intuitive. I prefer the 12 for the torque and power, but some people prefer the 9 for the higher rpm capability. Even on my Uly (with tall suspension and long frame) I feel right at home in the twisties, the shorter length/height XB9s are even more responsive and capable.

Bryce

Nashco wrote: but it's actually quite involved because (mostly for styling purposes) it's got different exhaust, lighting, fuel tank, suspension tuning, etc. On top of that, if you want to offer it in the US that means you also need to have US-specific parts, emissions testing, sound testing, lighting testing, etc. for homologation.

You're correct, of course. I'm oversimplyfing the issue, but it can't be that big of a deal. I also realize that most of it is the american buying public. Americans buy sportbikes and chromeycruisers, and if you dont' want either you could probably be adequately satisfied by one or the other.

Nashco wrote: ... and I'd venture to say if you're interested in naked bikes and haven't been on a Buell XB, give it a shot. The handling is awesome, very responsive and intuitive. I prefer the 12 for the torque and power, but some people prefer the 9 for the higher rpm capability.

Well, yes. I'd love a Buell. It's pretty much the perfect motorcycle on paper, and I love the way they sit, and I'll probably go do a test ride one of these days when it's really pretty out and I've got nothing better to do. On the flipside, 9 grand is alot of scratch for the most basic twin Buell you can get into. That's FZ1/Z1000/Bandit 1250 money right there.

therex wrote: You're correct, of course. I'm oversimplyfing the issue, but it can't be *that* big of a deal.

It shouldn't be, but it is quite a PITA to get homologated for different markets and is only worth it if you have large volumes or large markups (and we know which end of the spectrum a Hornet 600 would end up at in the US).

Well, yes. I'd love a Buell. It's pretty much the perfect motorcycle on paper, and I love the way they sit, and I'll probably go do a test ride one of these days when it's really pretty out and I've got nothing better to do. On the flipside, 9 grand is alot of scratch for the most basic twin Buell you can get into. That's FZ1/Z1000/Bandit 1250 money right there.

I agree the MSRP is a tough one to get over. Even when I was working for H-D I rode used Jap bikes, I didn't get my Uly until the used prices dropped a bit to where it was worth it for me. Now you can get them a bit under sticker buying new (especially in this slow economy, they've got great deals on financing, freebie accessories, reduced MSRP, etc), you can save the equivalent of a couple grand right now with all the deals that are running if you play your cards right. If used is an option, you can get a used XB9 for under 5 grand all day long, closer to $4k if you keep your eyes open for deals. badweatherbikers.com is a good place to watch.

I agree, if the new Hornet 600 was sold here it'd be a cool bike to have....but it's not. If they're going to start bringing over oddballs from Europe, I'd rather have the Opel Speedster first. :)

Bryce

ignorant wrote: anyone know anything about a VTR 250 honda? good bad indifferent. I'd kill for a cbr125.. Perfect for a 6 mile back road(read 35mph speed limit) commute.

Are you speaking of the US spec version from '88 to '91? www.vtr250.com

Honda has a new (already mentioned) 250 out that would be really cool if it were available here, I think. There's links to info abou the new vtr250 on the site listed above.

Clem

WOW, so there's my hypothetical Japanese baby Duc Monster . It even has the triangluated steel truss frame, I love it . I honestly had no idea this bike existed. If they could sell this in the US at a price competitive with the 250 Ninja I'd probably put my name on the list right now.

Man, that Honda headlight/gauge cluster setup they use on the naked bikes is sooooooo ugly.

Yeah, I'd hide those gauges behind a Monster or Buell Blast flyscreen.

While I had my 919, I had intentions of putting a "Kick Ash" Buell (XB9SX) setup like this on the front, but in the end I just got a Buell instead. :)

That cage thing on the lights is pretty silly, I took mine off the Uly within a few seconds of getting it home, it pops right off. I think the naked Hondas would look 300% more sinister with that type of headlight setup (compared to the big cereal bowl and chrome cups they use), and with naked bikes sinister is cool.

Bryce