State Farm "Save and Drive" issues

These devices are just the thin edge of the wedge. If they are voluntary now, you can be sure that they will be law and standard equipment on every car sold before much longer. Insurance companies invest heavily in politicians and politicians do what they are told by their owners because it is easy money.

New cars already castigate you for going over the speed limit with the speed display going red. Toyota won't let you drive away with your new car  without linking a  data-enabled phone to your car. How much longer before any and all traffic offenses are reported to the overlords  in real time and the tickets just arrive as a text with the money being removed  automatically from your account? All it would take is one line of consent written into the renewal for your license or your insurance policy. Not like you would be given a choice. Software paved the way for those kind of consent choices.

The good news is that self driving cars will level the field. In order for self driving cars to work they MUST follow the rules of the road as written. There will be no fudge-factor speed limit and following distances will be to the fraction of an inch.  Ironically, I have a feeling this will make travel faster.

LOL.

My wife is a programmer* for another insurance company. She works on their equivalent program. The stories of just how broken and impossible to properly implement those systems are is mind boggling. I'm not paranoid about privacy, but how much personal information is poorly secured in those systems is stupefying.

*Not technically a "programmer", but I don't understand the difference and don't think anyone here will as well.

NOHOME said:

These devices are just the thin edge of the wedge. If they are voluntary now, you can be sure that they will be law and standard equipment on every car sold before much longer. Insurance companies invest heavily in politicians and politicians do what they are told by their owners because it is easy money.

Doesn't even need to be law. They're already pre-installed in most new cars now. They just... either aren't turned on by default, or the manufacturers don't share the data by default, or something like that. Wife would be able to speak more directly to that.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Do new cars actually have the ability to call home on their own or do they rely on the drivers conectivity to do so? The fact that Toyota Canada does not let you off the lot with your new car until it connects to your data enabled cell phone took me by surprise.

I am also curious about the amount of tatle-tale data that might be logged in the cars digital brain. Does it overwrite on a regular basis or store certain events forever? Does it rate my paranoia?

bobzilla said:

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

bobzilla said:

But they're not measuring your actual pedal input. 

Some do. Some of them are gizmos that plug into your OBD2 port, so they'd have access to all your inputs.

That's not what this is and not what they're using now.... Did you miss the whole thread? 

I'll admit I skimmed it, but the OBD2 gizmos are definitely still a thing. Progressive still offers it.

GameboyRMH said:

bobzilla said:

 

Anyone else have this issue? I bought the car BECAUSE it handles well, has good brakes and acceleration. 

I almost had that issue but then I told the insurance company that wanted me to use it that I would not be doing that. Then I dumped them for another provider that doesn't do that BS and took my foreign driving history into account, and that's how I saved almost 20% on my car insurance

I think it's pretty well-known that you have to drive like a grandma to appease those devices.

Update: My insurance just sent me an email that revealed that they will be berkeleying me over next year (edit: in billing, so this year, 2024), and review shows they actually started a year ago. More in the rant thread...

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

progressive sucks balls. I would rather let a homeless man fix my crashed car than follow their ways. 

In reply to NOHOME :

Luckily my new Koreans don't care about your speed. My Forte displays a sign in the center display of the speed limit but it is always a white and black sign. Wife's Seltos doesn't even do that. Plus they don't do diddly squat ota so I feel pretty good about our choices.

NOHOME said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Do new cars actually have the ability to call home on their own or do they rely on the drivers conectivity to do so? The fact that Toyota Canada does not let you off the lot with your new car until it connects to your data enabled cell phone took me by surprise.

I am also curious about the amount of tatle-tale data that might be logged in the cars digital brain. Does it overwrite on a regular basis or store certain events forever? Does it rate my paranoia?

I don't know all the details. I'm sure to get some of this wrong. But my best understanding is...

I believe the data is sent to and logged with the manufacturer. The manufacturer then transmits that data to the insurance carriers. It is stored in one of those two locations, rather than with the vehicle itself.

I have no idea what the lifespan of that data is, but my wife has not mentioned being unable to access data that was too old. But these systems aren't *that* old.

As for dangerous breaches of privacy - there have been situations where: Party A tries to escape from a domestic abuse situation. However Party B is the named insurer on the policy and can use the app to track where Party A's car is traveling. Party A calls insurance and asks them to cancel or turn off the tracking service, but is unable because they're not the named insured and so don't have the power to make policy changes.

Given that situation, it would indicate that it doesn't require connecting your phone, because then Party A could just turn off their phone or delete the insurance app to avoid being tracked.

In reply to Beer Baron :

That's how I understand it as well.  I know we have no way of knowing this for certain without a subpoena, but my guess is that the data looks more like "ID tag 83456=248998652A recorded 84 mph at these coordinates on Dec 13th at 08:04," and not "OMG, Beer Baron was speeding in his light blue S2000 and he's naughty."

I also highly doubt that [insurance company] hired an entire coding, separate IT, billion-dollar servers, and publishing department to make and monitor their own data.  The expense would be astronomical.  It's more likely that [insurance company] reached out to [established data collection firm] to handle the whole shebang, and I would be surprised if [insurance company] ever saw much more than a monthly report on how much money their safe driving app kept in their wallets.  There is no profit in spending billions on staffing a bunch of people (or paying for the server time) to decrypt every single data point and (illegally) assign goods and bads to individuals.

The law is super-crystal-clear on that.  (a law which I'm trying to find, but can't right now)  It was summarized along with the paperwork for my safe driving thingy.  Insurance companies can only alter rates on actual infractions.  Get a speeding ticket?  Yup.  Go 312 mph on the app?  Nope.  They also just changed the law again.  They can no longer call it a discount.  They call them something like rate adjustment or incentive, but raising rates based on the program is something that is prohibited by federal law, and it's not like insurance companies are self-regulated these days.

Another way to look at it is, have you (general "you," not Beer Baron) heard of any lawsuits about that happening?  Have you ever had your rates go up because of the app?  Have you ever heard of anyone else's rates going up from the app?

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

A big corporation would never break a consumer protection law right? And if they did, the fine for doing so is almost certainly priced in. Besides, it seems everyone's rates are going up. I'm with SF too and despite our cars depreciating and our age increasing, our rates keep going up. They could easily increase rates differently depending on your app score and explain it some other way. You are right about what should be happening, but who knows what actually is. Anyway I'll keep opting out.

https://www.wkw.com/car-insurance-trackers

So while they can't raise your premiums, they can deny you coverage or lower your payout based on your driving habits. No.... that would never happen right? It's all on the up and up and no one would ever get screwed by an insurance company. 

lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) said:

Youcan join AARP at the young age of 50.

I think you can join them earlier, so they avoid age discrimination issues. Not that I can find out unless someone invents a time machine.

Fun fact.  If you drive a Alfa Romeo and your insurance company gives you a thing to plug into the dlc you better save a ton of money because next time you need to hook to the car to scan it or reset the service interval you won't be able to because the insurance plug in pins are too fat and dick the plug up.  I don't know if this is true of any other stellantis products but we have to stock dlc repair kits because it happens so often.

Some of you guys are giving the insurance companies way too much the benefit of the doubt.  They've got legal teams out the wazoo finding these loopholes and gray areas.  

Curtis's well informed "voice of reason" replies make sense to me and seem entirely plausible. That's how I like to look at things.
 

That said, I'm not doing it, because I don't like the idea. I know it's more of an emotional reaction than analytical. I'm fine with that.

Im late to this party, but if nobody has said it already... Put the phone in a gyroscope/gimbal mount.  Speeds will still be accurate, but accelerometer readings will all register on one axis.

In reply to bobzilla :

If you want to approach it from a fearful perspective, then you'll never like it.  I just happened to do some research around the legal aspect, and know that if they choose to break those specific laws and get caught, it's not a fine.  It's jail time for someone, the company loses its license to provide insurance, and a million people begin a class action suit because they're out shopping for insurance from another company because their company is belly-up.

But making up wild scenarios in which "they might" do something doesn't track with the two decades of insurance companies not wanting to go to jail and go bankrupt has kept them within the lines.  To suddenly assume my insurance company (out of all the thousands that are out there) will commit business suicide by committing a massive federal felony isn't something I conjure is likely.

I read through that link.  I'm actually put at ease by it.  The law says they can't raise your rates or penalize you.  The worst they can do is give you less of a discount, but you could drive like Andretti and they can't raise your rates.  They can take away the discount.  And in an accident, the data that the tracker can provide is nothing but truth.  If the other driver is at fault, it helps me prove my case.  If I'm at fault.... then I'm at fault and I accept responsibility.  It's like a dashcam on steroids.  Bring it.

camopaint0707 said:

Some of you guys are giving the insurance companies way too much the benefit of the doubt.  They've got legal teams out the wazoo finding these loopholes and gray areas.  

Don't get me wrong, I know they're out to make a lot of pennies, and they succeed wildly.  There are awards given to insurance reps and agencies for how many at-fault claims they succeeded in denying.  You know those "Auto service excellence" plaques you see at the dealer service office?  Those aren't for being a great shop, those are awards from the manufacturer for turning warranty claims into customer-pay.  Thanks for legally avoiding fraud, here's a flat piece of wood with your name on it.  I have two.  When I worked in Pharmacy, it happened all the time.  Customer comes in and their antibiotic is suddenly $75.  9 times out of 10 they just pay for it without knowing that the insurance company intentionally didn't cover the medication to see if they could get out of paying.  If you call them, of course they say "oops, we're sorry, it's covered.  Computer error."  According to the law, if a customer pays for their own claim, it's considered a claim denial and it's perfectly legal.  If they resubmit the clearly-covered claim instead of paying it and it's denied again, that's where the illegal part is.  Hence why it's suddenly a "computer error" and someone in the legal department has a huge sigh of relief.

But at no time...  EVER in any of those industries I worked did we cross a line that would expose us to legal action.  EVER.  Insurance companies of all sorts have so many governing bodies watching them like hawks.

I would venture to say that they have legal teams out the wazoo making sure no one steps too far out of line.  You're thinking their legal team is finding ways to break the law without getting caught, but it's 90% the other way around.  They're there to make sure the company doesn't stick their head up their ass and lose the one precious asset they have; the ability to practice business and make money.

NOHOME said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Do new cars actually have the ability to call home on their own or do they rely on the drivers conectivity to do so? The fact that Toyota Canada does not let you off the lot with your new car until it connects to your data enabled cell phone took me by surprise.

I am also curious about the amount of tatle-tale data that might be logged in the cars digital brain. Does it overwrite on a regular basis or store certain events forever? Does it rate my paranoia?

We know that at least as far back as 2014, cars were phoning home (1).  I'm assuming it was on their own via some sort of 3g network a la OnStar*.   Nowadays, it's probably through your phone's data connection, which is most likely why they're trying to get rid of Android Auto/Apple CarPlay (2), because the big boys won't share that data with the OEMs..

(1) https://www.complex.com/sports/a/ian-servantes/ford-exec-says-company-knows-when-we-speed

(2) https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/04/14/gm-dropping-apple-carplay-android-auto/11665322002/

^For a car to "phone home" via a BT connection from the headunit to a phone would require additional software on the phone to collect the data from the car and pass it on, so it shouldn't be too easy to sneak that in, even if it becomes a standard phone OS component at some point.

Edit: The only exception may be if the headunit uses BT tethering, which generally is disabled by default and visible on the phone when in use.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I mean, you're own words admitted it.  "too far out of line", implying they go out of line but to what degree.  And yes, the legal teams make sure people are within the law and when they can bend it.  I honestly didn't think that would surprise anyone that insurance companies couldn't care less about the people.

In reply to camopaint0707 :

Are you telling me SF doesn't "love me long time"?

In reply to bobzilla :

Ain't nobody love you long time

(I'm kidding) 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I read through that link.  I'm actually put at ease by it.  The law says they can't raise your rates or penalize you.  The worst they can do is give you less of a discount, but you could drive like Andretti and they can't raise your rates.  They can take away the discount.  And in an accident, the data that the tracker can provide is nothing but truth.  If the other driver is at fault, it helps me prove my case.  If I'm at fault.... then I'm at fault and I accept responsibility.  It's like a dashcam on steroids.  Bring it.

Also knowing a bit about how the data collected gets "analyzed" to calculate discounts and such... LOL.

It's a mess. There are problems throughout the entirety of the information stream. You're not going to fail to get a discount because you didn't drive exactly how they want you to. You're going to fail to get a discount because the code that applies discounts is puking the bed over a value in a date field being applied wrong. Then you're going to complain to customer support, and someone like my wife is going to dive into why the system is broken this time. Eventually someone will manually change a value in a field of YOUR table to force it to give you a discount because it costs less to shut you up than to deal with your complaints while they try to figure out how to fix it correctly.

No one is closely analyzing the data collected. Some poor programmer drudgeon is writing the most good-enough code they can to get the system to limp along enough to keep customers satisfied enough with the system for it to function.

They know the real savings is social control that, as long as people *think* they could be monitored at any time, they'll modify their driving behavior.