Stupidity at its finest...

New Orleans..... Don't you people ever freaking learn? I mean, really?

Basically had the weather channel on at work earlier for some background noise. They are saying the flooding in some areas is worse than that of Katrina, at one point they were discussing having to breach a levy intentionally because of another that had failed and was filling an area like a fishbowl. You build a city next to the water that is at or below sea level, expect this and gtfo before one of these storms.

Having previously lived in New-O, its not how you think it is. Its not like L.A. where people have cars, money, and family somewhere else. Many of these people have absolutely nothing. There are a ton of low- or zero- income people who have no car, no family other than possibly someone in town, and they also don't want to leave their only assets behind.

I know its hard to imagine, but simply getting a bus ticket to higher ground is not simple. First of all... higher ground is about 25 miles away and there is no public transportation between the city and across the lake. "Higher Ground" is also a complete joke. The elevation in the nearest town (Slidell) is 6 ft. The highest elevation in Louisiana is a Bridge. Not kidding.

Simply purchasing a Greyhound ticket isn't within their means, and then they would just be stranded in Gulfport or Mobile... which means they have spent their last dime leaving their only assets (which may or may not get flooded) and they are now penniless, homeless, and living outside in a hurricane.

They also have a bit different set of experience with that type of weather. I know people in TX who used to think I was dumb for moving back to PA because all of those snowstorms kill people. To a person in New-O who has survived a few hundred hurricanes, they probably are saying the same exact thing every time the weatherman says there is a blizzard in the North East. They're probably saying, "you idiots, get out of there."

One thing's for sure, it's a bad situation.

I've got family that lives in the area, and I've been there more than a few times. Even lived there for a bit. Broke, or penniless, after katrina, I would have gotten out of there any way I could have. Heck most of em were bussed out anyway after katrina, how did they get back? I'm willing to bet most of em took the reconstruction jobs. Personally, can't stand the place. I barely talk to family in the area anymore as I can't handle the street/ebonics/foul language that they have come to use and teach their kids. "It's how people talk around there" bah

Last I heard the population of NO hasn't gone back up to pre-Katrina levels. Most people, I'd bet, got someplace and just stayed.

I remember someone pointing out, while on Bourbon St one day, that sea level was 15 feet above our heads.

I agree It's a bad situation, it still annoys me though.

curtis73 wrote: Having previously lived in New-O, its not how you think it is. Its not like L.A. where people have cars, money, and family somewhere else. Many of these people have absolutely nothing. There are a ton of low- or zero- income people who have no car, no family other than possibly someone in town, and they also don't want to leave their only assets behind. I know its hard to imagine, but simply getting a bus ticket to higher ground is not simple. First of all... higher ground is about 25 miles away and there is no public transportation between the city and across the lake. "Higher Ground" is also a complete joke. The elevation in the nearest town (Slidell) is 6 ft. The highest elevation in Louisiana is a Bridge. Not kidding. Simply purchasing a Greyhound ticket isn't within their means, and then they would just be stranded in Gulfport or Mobile... which means they have spent their last dime leaving their only assets (which may or may not get flooded) and they are now penniless, homeless, and living outside in a hurricane. They also have a bit different set of experience with that type of weather. I know people in TX who used to think I was dumb for moving back to PA because all of those snowstorms kill people. To a person in New-O who has survived a few hundred hurricanes, they probably are saying the same exact thing every time the weatherman says there is a blizzard in the North East. They're probably saying, "you idiots, get out of there."

I lived in new Orleans for a while pre-Katrina. A friend ridiculed residents for not leaving, and I tried to explain the same thing to no avail. I was met with why don't they go to a friend or relatives for a while? I told them to imagine if not only you were flooded, or your house burned down, but so did everyone you knew, including your friends, parents, coworkers, your job is gone, and governmental offices are compromised if operating at all.

It was a catastrophe of Nagasakiesque proportions for people like that. What I would call radical poverty is not something most people encounter and is hard to understand. Its also hard to explain. I used to be a social worker, and would simply say in most inner cities, as well as elsewhere of course, there are large areas that are very similar to whatever stereotype of Appalachia comes to mind.

And the really sad part is, it's nearly all man-made. The Mississippi by nature wouldn't flow out where it does now. Google the Old River Control Structure (Atchafalaya) and/or read The Control of Nature by John McPhee. Prepare to be amazed and disgusted.

I lived in Nola for 4 months, have sailed the mighty M, and have close family in the area. I'm damn proud of what the CG did during Katrina, and I know we'll be there for them again. I just wish we could get them partially out of that hole to begin with.

I guess my issue is less about poverty than it is about entitlement and dependency.

I realize NO is a tough issue. I've lived there (briefly), as well as in Appalachia, the Mississippi Delta, and several inner cities. I don't have great answers.

I have also lived in a couple of Third World countries for an extended period. Years.

It is a curiosity to me that we use phrases like "radical poverty" about places like NO. There are SO MANY places in the world that make NO look downright wealthy.

On a current list of the 50 poorest countries in the world, there is only one in this entire hemisphere- Haiti. The other 49 are on the other side of the world.

But my issue is not about who makes the most money, or cry-babying about how poor other places are.

Here's my issue...

New Orleans has an average gross income of $36,468. That's about 5% less than the national average, and 18% MORE than the average in the rest of the state of LA.

Meanwhile, our southern neighbor Mexico has a average gross income per capita per year of $3523.

10 times. The average income in NO is 10 times the average in the entire country of Mexico.

Yet, most everyone would agree that the work ethic of the average Mexican is incredible.

So, why is it that we excuse the lack of industriousness or ambition of our own impoverished citizens with lame excuses like "radical poverty", or "they can't buy a bus ticket", and commit them to generation after generation of hopeless dependency, while our southern neighbors (on 10% of the income), are prepared to literally work themselves to death, or die walking across a desert to earn a better living for themselves and their families?

The failure of NO is not poverty. Honestly, most residents don't even know the meaning of the word, though the rest of us saddle them with the label. The failure of NO (and other places in our country) is the shamefulness of stealing from our own citizens their dignity, and holding them down under the curse of dependency.

Don't degrade the dignity of decent humans by insulting them with phrases like "they can't". That's BS.

In reply to mattmacklind:

Please don't compare appalachians to those living in inner cities or places like New Orleans. Redneck has a whole different meaning in the hills and mountains. Weeks without power or "modern" amenities is nothing for most of them, and while occasionally a bad egg will come out, even the ones who are "bad" will pull together and help one another in a situation like that. The squabbling, looting, rape, etc would not be the first thing on their minds.

SVREX summed it up nicely. My wife and I bring home about 2k a month, yet we get by, don't ask for hand outs, and when something breaks or needs fixing we figure out how to get it done. Have I learned the hard way on how to build a house from home repairs? Yeah, but I'm not complaining. Fell off a ladder 13 years ago and landed on a tree root, I still work every day I can even though I was told I would likely be on disability the rest of my life. I'm not built to take a hand out when I can get out and do it, so what if I'm in pain almost every night from it. The point is, there is always something that can be done, you just have to want to.

SVreX wrote: The failure of NO (and other places in our country) is the shamefulness of stealing from our own citizens their dignity, and holding them down under the curse of dependency. Don't degrade the dignity of decent humans by insulting them with phrases like "they can't". That's BS.

I agree with most of what you said except this statement. No one is holding them down, they are there of their own choice BECAUSE that's the way they can live on the govt. teat. Welfare is killing the country, not saving it. It sounds good in principle but as you can see, the execution doesn't work out quite like you'd expect. Look at the Mexican example used above. No welfare but definitely an area of extreme poverty. Look at how many of them are coming here to try to get ahead by working hard. They grew up differently and have a different work ethic.

BTDT grew up White Trash, but I didn't stay there, but I do understand the mentality. They will do anything to keep the govt checks flowing. Birds of a feather......which simply means you think & act like the people you associate with. If everyone around you's dream is a free check or a way to live free(er) then somehow that becomes something for you to strive for too. Normal is what's happening to you.

This is why you see people wanting to live in a "better" neighborhood or have their kids go to a "better" school. They want to give your kids the opportunity to be "better" than they were.

I understand this is not a popular viewpoint, but it always seems to not be popular from people who've never been there and fall for the scam they put on you. That's right, they are scamming you so that they don't have to work and you'll support them. Their idea of getting ahead and their values isn't the same as yours.

In reply to carguy123:

I don't think we are very far from each other. I think there is an enormous amount of scamming from both sides. Poor folks who don't want to work, manipulative leaders who want their vote, and well-meaning but gullible, enabling do-gooders who want to make themselves feel good about impacting the world by helping someone they know nothing about.

Spinout007 wrote: The point is, there is always something that can be done, you just have to want to.

There is an amazing amount of insight in that statement.

Sometimes it takes a while to fully grasp the meaning, but once you do, the sky is the limit.

DoctorBlade wrote: Last I heard the population of NO hasn't gone back up to pre-Katrina levels. Most people, I'd bet, got someplace and just stayed.

My fiance and her family left New Orleans right after Katrina and ended up moving to my home town (that is where her mom is from originally). We met about a month after Katrina. I guess there is occasionally a silver lining to a E36 M3 cover situation.

SVreX wrote: It is a curiosity to me that we use phrases like "radical poverty" about places like NO. There are SO MANY places in the world that make NO look downright wealthy... But my issue is not about who makes the most money, or cry-babying about how poor other places are. Here's my issue... New Orleans has an average gross income of $36,468. That's about 5% less than the national average, and 18% MORE than the average in the rest of the state of LA. Meanwhile, our southern neighbor Mexico has a average gross income per capita per year of $3523. 10 times. The average income in NO is 10 times the average in the entire country of Mexico. Yet, most everyone would agree that the work ethic of the average Mexican is incredible. So, why is it that we excuse the lack of industriousness or ambition of our own impoverished citizens with lame excuses like "radical poverty", or "they can't buy a bus ticket", and commit them to generation after generation of hopeless dependency, while our southern neighbors (on 10% of the income), are prepared to literally work themselves to death, or die walking across a desert to earn a better living for themselves and their families? The failure of NO is not poverty. Honestly, most residents don't even know the meaning of the word, though the rest of us saddle them with the label. The failure of NO (and other places in our country) is the shamefulness of stealing from our own citizens their dignity, and holding them down under the curse of dependency. Don't degrade the dignity of decent humans by insulting them with phrases like "they can't". That's BS.

I'm not cry-babying about the state of affairs, or making apologies for it, or making a lame excuse. One of the reasons I mentioned it being hard to explain is that the explanation becomes tainted with the notion that the describer is arguing for a "lesser standard" of some kind, or to be an apologist My experience both as a social worker and as a prosecutor is there is a huge population of people, arguably growing, that are borderline retarded, has no impulse control and limited capacity for reason.

There is no teaching or reasoning. That is what I meant by radical poverty. It isn't radical insofar as it is extreme, it is radical in the sense that there is no program, school, job training, jail, or any social program you can engineer that will change it.

I don't excuse the lack of industriousness or ambition when I describe it.

Only thing I can (hopefully) add without floundering..

I grew up in hurricane country. Gulf Coast as a kid, and NC OBX as a teen. There's a reason folks don't just immediately leave when one of these things comes ashore. There is a definite risk assessment that must be made.

Here's a story..When Belle (1976) looked like it was moving our direction, my parents scooped up my sister & I, and headed inland. Belle stayed offshore. Lots of rain, some wind, a close call, but no bullseye. Can't blame my parents for making such a decision, they were both from Louisiana, and had survived Audrey (1957), Betsy (1965?), and Camille (1969).

When it became obvious that the storm was not going to strike us, we attempted to return home. There was a State Trooper blocking the road. "No access, those are my orders.", he said. Dad showed him a drivers' license with our address, trying to prove that we belonged in the alleged "disaster area". No dice. While we sat at the roadblock waiting for the Trooper's boss to tell him to let us drive back to our own berkelying house, the looters were breaking into the place. They did much more damage to it than a glancing blow from the storm would ever have done. And that's without mentioning how much of our stuff was stolen. Hell, the bastards even stole our appliances. We were lucky..my dad worked for the federal government, and we lived in gov't housing. Without his agency paying to repair everything, we would have been bankrupted.

That is why people are tempted to stay in the presence of a storm. Predictions (especially about weather) can be wrong. You can lose everything you have if you leave. I'm not saying it's "right"..I'm just saying that I understand it, and that much of the time, I support it.

What's the alternative? Tell people they can't live in places where hurricanes strike? Why restrict such an edict to places at risk of a hurricane? Tell them folks running from tornadoes in Oklahoma, and the folks in upstate New York who fear lake effect blizzards that they need to move somewhere "safe" as well!

People live where they live. Every place humans live has a risk. The Earth is what it is--just because it spawned us, that doesn't mean it's always a comfortable place for us.

I suppose I should also mention that for the rest of my life on the coast, for anything less than a Cat 3, we stood our ground and sat on the front porch with our shotguns after the winds died down.

If you live below sealevel why should I subsidize ignorance?

i'll just say that if you're gonna live in a city that's below sea level and is a likely target for a hurricane from time to time, you should be prepared to either deal with the aftermath or gtfo when necessary and not expect the government to help you out.

TRoglodyte wrote: If you live below sealevel why should I subsidize ignorance?

If you live above sealevel, why should I subsidize your vacation at the beach? Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of toll plazas on the roads in & out of my childhood homes..

If Sam Kennison was alive today, he'd be re-writing his African desert bit about New Orleans.

FWIW, the leveies held.

I'm constantly amazed by the calousness of other people.

SV- you just really opened my eyes. thank you for letting me know. And that means IMHO previous support was a total waste of time.

Some of you want to make me cry.

More so, since this quicly turned into political flounder, it gives me even more reason why my support is on the other side vs a lot of you.

These are people, for Gods sake. I don't recall any teachings where I was allowed to judge who was allowed to deserve my support- all I know is that they need help, and should get it. I also recall that many of you wanted to start wars over what happened on 9/11, which we spend 100x as much as natural disasters cost, just to go kill a lot of people.

no wonder I go to so few car events.

In reply to alfadriver:

It's one thing to go to the aid of someone or somewhere that had no warning of what was coming, These people had plenty of warning. Not just warnings, but generations of experience to know what happens with these storms. The old addage of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

alfadriver wrote: no wonder I go to so few car events.

Yayaya, we get it, you don't believe in personal responsibility. That's cool if you like the society we live in today and the direction its heading. Lots of us don't. It's a pretty simple concept.

Eric, there is no doubt that youre an intelligent, educated, upstanding person, of a respectable moral nature. I have a lot of respect for you here, especially on mechanical topics.

But some of youre politics confuse me.

Lets say your kid is jumping on the trampoline, and you tell them not to jump too close to the edge cuz they could fall and get hurt, and they do it anyway, and fall and get hurt. You feel bad because your kid has a scraped elbow and a busted lip, and theyre crying and dirty, so you clean them up, speak gently to them, make them feel better, and then give them a sucker.

What happens when the kid realizes that they can break the rules and still find soothing care and a sucker? They continue the bad behavior, intentionally disregarding your warnings, and their own safety, expecting to get a reward, because youve rewarded their poor choices and irresponsible behavior before.

Stop rewarding poor choices and bad behavior.

I have been approached by panhandlers on the street asking for money...a few coins, maybe a buck. In one instance, I offered to take the guy to the Kohls around the corner, and buy him a pair of khakis and a polo shirt, so he could be presentable on an interview. He declined.

That is the problem we face...in general...in this country.

oh ho no, Id rather just have the smaller handout, please

...makes me ill.

Spinout007 wrote: The old addage of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

seriously this^^

SVreX wrote: In reply to carguy123: I don't think we are very far from each other. I think there is an enormous amount of scamming from both sides. Poor folks who don't want to work, manipulative leaders who want their vote, and well-meaning but gullible, enabling do-gooders who want to make themselves feel good about impacting the world by helping someone they know nothing about.

Amen Brother!!!!