1988RedT2 wrote: As we are increasingly a society of criminals, is it any wonder that so many of our elected representatives are as well?
When laws are insane, sane people are criminals too.
I was going to put this in the pictures thread, but it seems kind of appropriate here, too:
One thing to note- some law somewhere said that a warrant for a parking ticket was the bar for probable cause and a search.
That bar can be changed- that's what all of the state governments are for.
Most of what the SCOTUS sees are cases that question whether a law is Constitutional or not. For whatever reason, they decided that the bar can be set that low. But that does not mean that we can't set it higher- which would have decided this case in the state courts if the bar was higher.
Bobzilla wrote: IIRC, after Ferguson didn't the DoJ find that of the 21,000 residents of Ferguson, 15,000 had outstanding warrants? That means if a police officer stopped everyone on the street they came in contact wit, they could make an arrest 2 out of 3 times.
that alone proves something was wrong with the way Ferguson was run. I don't care how bad a town is.. 3/4s of the population should not have a warrant out for their arrest
I fail to understand how the "arrest warrant" system works (or more precisely, fails to work). If I've done something wrong and am charged but not notified that I now have an "outstanding warrant" then my first inkling that I'm operating outside the law is when I get pulled for speeding (or whatever) and end up in handcuffs.
That's some Animal House double secret probation bullE36 M3 right there. Are we supposed to go down to the courthouse every six months and ask if we have any warrants out for us? Shouldn't the authorities actually let us know that something is going on?
Well, that could be the result of a culture of minor crime being viewed as acceptable by the majority of the population. If in my community I see a parking ticket as a big deal, and in your community people are getting shot on a regular basis, minor crimes will be significantly more common and less a focus of law enforcement.
So in those communities, law enforcement uses whatever excuse it can to bring people in and tally up all their charges over the years.
We're already creating "prison cities" where the vast majority of people might be affected by crime.
Venezuela might be an interesting case in how to bring a society back from the brink when the entire population is running nearly lawless.
Parking meters are just double form of revenue for cities. They get the legit money from the meters and then really dick you if you don't feed the meter. Or as some cities do, give you a ticket just because the meter is about to expire.
Bobzilla wrote: In reply to rob_lewis: IIRC this was a stop on the sidewalk. No infractions, just a detective decided to run his ID with no PC, just because. Maybe it was the color of his shirt. Who knows. He runs the ID, finds the warrant and arrests him on the spot. During that search, he finds the drugs and away we go. So... this decision has basically said that it's OK to stop people at the officers discretion and if they have a warrant they can arrest and anything found on them at that time is fine to charge them with. This violates everything I understand about the 4th amendment.
There was already a case where cop stopped a young woman that had sores on her face. According to the popo, she looked like a meth addict because of the sores. The courts backed the cop.
Bobzilla wrote:rob_lewis wrote: (On a different note. What if was a small town and the cop knew the guy and knew he had a warrant? I assume it's legal then because the cop had prior knowledge?) -RobCorrect. But then the next question is how do you prove that in court?
The point being that this ruling essentially means the police officer no longer has to. He does not need what was formerly a legitimate reason to stop, frisk and run your ID.
Welcome to the Police State, America. You may not realize it, but you've already been living there for quite some time.
KyAllroad said: I fail to understand how the "arrest warrant" system works (or more precisely, fails to work). If I've done something wrong and am charged but not notified that I now have an "outstanding warrant" then my first inkling that I'm operating outside the law is when I get pulled for speeding (or whatever) and end up in handcuffs. That's some Animal House double secret probation bullE36 M3 right there. Are we supposed to go down to the courthouse every six months and ask if we have any warrants out for us? Shouldn't the authorities actually let us know that something is going on?
That's pretty much how it worked for me. I was on my way back to school from a camping trip with a couple friends during my last semester in college when I got pulled over for a routine speeding infraction (70 in a 55 or something.) Give the officer my license, registration, ect, he goes back to the cruiser, then returns to ask if "I have any additional paperwork." Uh, no?
The cop then goes on to explain that I am driving on a suspended license and have a warrant for unpaid fines, all news to me at the time even though this had apparent been the case for over a year and a half. Having never been arrested before, I'm freaking the berkeley out at this point, thinking I'm about to get dragged away in hand cuffs and the whole 9 yards.
Fortunately, the cop was actually really cool about everything and certainly went out of his way to do what he could to minimize the incident for me. Goes back to his cruiser, makes a few calls, then comes back to explain he is going to do a "roadside arrest" because he, technically, has to arrest me. This amounts to him frisking me, sitting me in the back of the cruiser, and explaining that I need to figure out what the unpaid fines are and take care of them, then show up at court on X date and he'll see that it all gets taken care of.
As it turns out, the unpaid fines were some ridiculous back door charges added on to a ticket I had received about 3 years prior. NY state never gave any indication that I even owed them this money, let alone that they had suspended my license and issued a warrant. All over a rather piddling sum of money, in the grand scheme of things.
I'm extremely lucky for this to have ended the way it did and thankful the officer was willing and able to apply some common sense and sympathy to the situation. Guy could have been a real dick and torn my car to bits searching it, impounded the car, and sent me to jail for the night. I'm sure being a relatively upstanding-looking, white, college kid had a LOT to do with that.
Disclaimer my knowledge only applies to Florida law. To clear up a few misconceptions about warrants and especially the arrest for resisting arrest statement.
In Florida with a few exceptions I can only arrest for misdemeanors if I see them. So I have to get a warrant to arrest or if it is an exception or a felony and the suspect is not in my jurisdiction or can't be located in a timely manner I have to go get a warrant. If I personally know someone has a warrant of course I can arrest them.
The being charged only with resisting arrest is so misunderstood. Guess what an arrest is in most States any time I can legally detain you you are technically arrested so if you resist that you are resisting arrest. Example if I stop someone for not having a light on their bicycle at night and they run they are resisting arrest. Cars are different that is fleeing and eluding.
This ruling basically says even if an officer screws up. Evidence gained can still be used against the suspect. This is contrary to the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree.
In reply to cabbagecop:
so you're stating that if you walk up to someone on the street and ask for their ID, they are already under arrest. Got it. Then I want a lawyer for any interactions with the police in any official capacity.
4th ammendment? We don't need no stinkin' 4th ammendment.
If I stop you for a valid pedestrian/traffic infraction,or otherwise legally detained and you are not free to leave then yes you are by definition arrested. Plus if you read the FSS on resisting (again only Florida I can't speak for others) it says resist, oppose, or obstruct an officer in the performance of their lawful duties.
We were talking about this at work today (the resisting arrest thing). Guy was seated on a jury trial for a guy wanted for a failure to appear on something else. Getting arrested occurred because he's at a house party and the cops show up for noise violation. Everyone bolts out the back door as the cop comes in the front. He gets as far as the other stairwell when another cop tackles him. Gave up at that point. They got like underage possession of alcohol and something else but threw resisting arrest on him then. All charges ended up sticking. Co-worker felt like crap finding him guilty (on that one charge) cause yes, he ran, but they all agreed to the letter of the law any sort of avoiding arrest = resisting arrest.
Waayyyyy to late to start seeing or caring about this stuff. The deed was done years ago and nobody noticed. It was all done under the heading of "protecting us". At this stage, best to just sit back and see how it plays out.
The only people who have noticed are threatening to elect a mad-man in a desperate attempt to upset the pot and burn as many as possible.
cabbagecop wrote: If I stop you for a valid pedestrian/traffic infraction,or otherwise legally detained and you are not free to leave then yes you are by definition arrested. Plus if you read the FSS on resisting (again only Florida I can't speak for others) it says resist, oppose, or obstruct an officer in the performance of their lawful duties.
CabbageCop, What bugs me is the situations where the only charge that carries through is resisting arrest-without violence. If the original charge was dropped then it seems to me there wasn't enough cause to arrest, therefore you were resisting an arrest that shouldn't have happened in the first place. You are punished for the crime of acting like you shouldn't be arrested, and you were right.
I understand where you are coming from it seems weird. But what if the original reason for a stop is not a criminal charge. Say I stop someone for a broken taillight and they bail out and run. That does not make the traffic violation criminal they can still only get a UTC for that but arrested for resisting because they ran.
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