Due to the nature of these things--specifically, don't need it very often, but good to have when you do--H-F is probably a good option. No sense tying up a lot of cash in something you hope you'll never need, and in fact, will use only rarely. Longevity probably isn't going to be an issue.
Edit: ECM brings up a very good point: Why not just improve the muffler on the noisy, cheap (value priced?) generator?
poopshovel again said:Predators from HF get rave reviews...if you can still find one, which I kinda doubt is the case. As someone else mentioned, you’ll have to shell out cash for quiet. Our “entry-level” generac is as loud as the predator.
I have one of the 4000W Predator ones from HF. It's been flawless over the last year and 5 or so multi day outages one lasting in excess of a week. Even Consumer Reports recommends them (2 issues ago?)
It consumes about 3 gallons of gas if run continuously every 12 hours. Powering a chest freezer, fridge and a few lights.
I need a transfer switch to hook it up to well pump but it does have 220 out of the box.
It'll hold me over until I get the cash together to roll my own powerwall and install solar panels.
The0retical said:poopshovel again said:Predators from HF get rave reviews...if you can still find one, which I kinda doubt is the case. As someone else mentioned, you’ll have to shell out cash for quiet. Our “entry-level” generac is as loud as the predator.
I have one of the 4000W Predator ones from HF. It's been flawless over the last year and 5 or so multi day outages one lasting in excess of a week. Even Consumer Reports recommends them (2 issues ago?)
It consumes about 3 gallons of gas if run continuously every 12 hours. Powering a chest freezer, fridge and a few lights.
I need a transfer switch to hook it up to well pump but it does have 220 out of the box.
It'll hold me over until I get the cash together to roll my own powerwall and install solar panels.
Serious question: Why the powerwall? Seems one is about the cost of big boy generator hooked up to the natural gas line?
And when I did the math, I'd want to be able to power EVERYTHING in the house (being mindful still) for two weeks. Which means two of them, which means north of $12k installed.
Wow, nevermind, even more expensive than that if this link is to be believed.
https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/
In reply to z31maniac :
Not everybody has natural gas, and gas can go out as well in rather extreme circumstances.
As I sit here staring angrily at the gas line that stops 1/4 mile from my house wondering why neither the township or gas company are willing to extend it to people who would be happy to pay for it.
On topic, I have an 8000 watt Briggs generator. We bought it when my dad was doing overnight dialysis, so it had to run that, the pellet stove, and the fridge. Haven't even run it in probably 5 years, but since we bought it the power hasn't been out more than 3 hours in a row.
If you have natural gas at your property (or propane) I strongly suggest going that route. As we all know, gasoline gets stale and it will require yearly maintenance. Aside from infrequent oil changes, an LP or NG generator won't need that upkeep.
Mom and dad have a portable. Pretty sure its a 5000w or so. They don't have natural gas at the property so he opted for a gasoline model and hasn't had any trouble. He just doesn't keep it full of gas so he always has fresh, stabilized gas to put in it if he needs it. He put in one of those linked switches that kills one (so it doesn't backfeed the grid) and activates the other. Then that subpanel only feeds necessary circuits; fridge, freezer, furnace, water heater, TV, a few lights and outlets, etc. They also rigged up a circuit in the meter with an LED light so he can look out the window to see if the utility is back on. Overkill, but a nice touch.
I'm strongly considering a propane model even though I have NG service at the house. My thought is that an NG generator will only work hooked up to the house, but a propane model is still portable for camping.
The primary difference between a generator and an inverter is how they make juice. A generator is an engine and an alternator. It makes dirty power. An inverter generator makes the same dirty power, but converts it to DC, then uses a higher quality inverter to turn it back into clean AC. The inverter part "scrubs" it. If you are just trying to power your freezer and lights, generator is fine. If you're doing a TV, computer, router, or other sensitive stuff, an inverter is the better choice.
The other difference is that a generator has to make power at 3600 rpms to get the 60Hz it is trying to produce. An inverter can just make bulk power and let the inverter determine load/demand. For this reason, inverter generators tend to consume less fuel.
In reply to z31maniac :
Part of my issue is that I'm out in rural PA. We don't have gas service to the house so I'd be faced with putting in a tank just for that purpose. It's not a deal breaker, as we were thinking of getting rid of the horrible electric oven and putting in a gas range, but it's not ideal.
There's actually a pretty big DIY community out there for building li-ion "Powerwalls" from scratch. If you watch or get in on a group buy you can pickup 18650 cells for about a buck a piece which would put someone at ~$140/KW to build. When you build them they're constructed roughly the same way as the Tesla ones, where each bank is fused so the fire risk likely a bit overblown. You still have to add in the cost of a charge controller and the panels so it's by no means cheap but I don't have to worry about the sun running out of gas in the event of another Sandy type event in the northeast.
The other factor is the modified sine wave that the HF generator puts out as Curtis stated. The inverter for renewable type systems can also generate a pure sine wave (if you buy a good one) so I can back feed into the grid when not in use.
The actual Tesla Powerwalls are expensive as hell but incorporate the charge controller and are packaged really nicely. I'm holding out for 2020ish to see where the solid state li-Ion production is as they don't generate dendrites which is the main cause of degradation of the cells.
The0retical said:In reply to z31maniac :
Part of my issue is that I'm out in rural PA. We don't have gas service to the house so I'd be faced with putting in a tank just for that purpose. It's not a deal breaker, as we were thinking of getting rid of the horrible electric oven and putting in a gas range, but it's not ideal.
There's actually a pretty big DIY community out there for building li-ion "Powerwalls" from scratch. If you watch or get in on a group buy you can pickup 18650 cells for about a buck a piece which would put someone at ~$140/KW to build. When you build them they're constructed roughly the same way as the Tesla ones, where each bank is fused so the fire risk likely a bit overblown. You still have to add in the cost of a charge controller and the panels so it's by no means cheap but I don't have to worry about the sun running out of gas in the event of another Sandy type event in the northeast.
The other factor is the modified sine wave that the HF generator puts out as Curtis stated. The inverter for renewable type systems can also generate a pure sine wave (if you buy a good one) so I can back feed into the grid when not in use.
The actual Tesla Powerwalls are expensive as hell but incorporate the charge controller and are packaged really nicely. I'm holding out for 2020ish to see where the solid state li-Ion production is as they don't generate dendrites which is the main cause of degradation of the cells.
Cool thanks for the info! I've never lived truly out in the country. Because of OKs oil/gas industry, natural gas is readily available. I'd love to do solar at some point as since I have a large 45° roof that 2/3rds of faces almost directly south.
However, with the wind/hail we get in Oklahoma, I'm suspect about their long-term durability, ie, payback on investment.
I have a 9500 watt one. It will power everything in my house. I have gas heat, hot water, stove, oven and a gas dryer so the only big items are the washing machine, microwave and the AC and I have had them running and never had an issue. We tend to loose power at least one time a year that I need to set it up. I have it plugged into a weather proof external 220 outlet that is wired in to the breaker panel that has a lock out for the main breaker so I can either have the generator powering the house or the main on but not both. Just a simple lever thing that mounts between the breakers mounted to the panel. It is an great feeling when you are the only one with lights on.
I have found that if the power is off for more than 6 hours you get to know your neighbors. First there kids come over to play games or watch TV or just to get warm and then they are followed by the parents to "check up on them" . One year with the power off for 3-4 days we had 20-30 people in and out of my place. People were bringing things from there fridge's and freezers so everyone was eating really well. I can not say no but dam it got a bit crazy. Fun but crazy. The only down side is that my unit is big and heavy and it is loud. But quiet costs $$$$. I have been thinking of putting another muffler on it. I was going to see if honda made a generator of similar size and see if I could purchase the muffler for that unit and see if I could adapt it to mine. However that is only part of the noise. the actual generator is also a big contributor to the amount of sound. Surprisingly it is not bad on gas. I get about 12 hours on 5 gallons of gas but I am sure that is because my house really does not use much electricity. It will for the most part just be idling. Only the microwave and or the AC or the washing machine will cause it to ramp up. I am glad I went big. It just takes all the guess work out of things when we need it. I fire it up spring and fall. Every fall I change the oil and drain the gas (put it in my truck) put a full tank of 93 in it. I run 93 with stabil gas stabilizer in all my small engins. I have never had a gas related no start since I started doing this. That way I know it is ready to go as we go in to the winter season. The truth is I could get by with a much small unit but going big just takes the worry out of things.
EDIT I just looked up the muffler for the Honda EB10000 and it costs $366 No wonder they are so quiet!!! The thing looks like the muffler of a 70's honda accord.
In reply to The0retical :
Great... now I just spent the last hour watching videos down that DIY wormhole. That is a must-do project. I can't do solar where I am, but I could charge at night and use during the day.
In reply to Curtis :
I probably shouldn't show you this by this guy then.
He's actually a bit of a gearhead too from what I can tell. Electrified VW Bus, features an a E46 BMW with a Tesla drivetrain, and other electrified DIY cars.
In reply to The0retical :
That's the guy I was watching on youtube.
I assume this was canoe bumped, but I still don’t own a generator although I still want one. Ironic that I posted in here about infant mortality.
Speaking of portable generators, I'm planning to get one. I saw the Smittybilt EPS Inverter Generator at 4wheelonline. It is small and lightweight which I think perfect for my camping trips. Just wondering if anyone has personal experience about this generator.
One of my employees was getting a generator and went on and on about a certain type that you should get so as not to damage electrical equipment like computers and stuff. Never heard of it and never had a problem with my old tank of a generator. Any truth to this?
In reply to dean1484 :
Inverter generators produce a "cleaner" sine wave of A/C current. A lot of marketing jargon will claim stuff like "pure sine wave."
They're usually smaller, lower output, and quieter too. There's some big boy inverters, but they cost.
For camping and storm duty, you're not likely to ruin any electronics with a modern non-inverter generator. If you're needing to back up a data center or medical facility, then yeah go with inverter.
I've used a 4K watt HF Predator at work frequently, for going on 5 years, it's been great, so I was shopping for a 6K watt HF Predator for myself this summer and couldn't find one in stock anywhere. I'm in central AR, so it's not like we have hurricanes. Apparently COVID caused a run on generators??? I wound up with a slightly used Briggs Storm Responder 8250 from FB Market Place, for less than I was going to spend on the Predator. Way more generator than I need, weighs a crap ton too, but it's been good so far, and I can run my welder off of it.
So disclaimer that I'm a software guy not a EE, but:
Any computer made in the last 30 years uses a switching power supply. The first thing that supply does is rectify the current into DC, which means they're hugely tolerant of weirdo AC waveforms. The cheap "modified sine wave" inverters in cheap UPSes (which basically put out a 2-level stepped square wave) are designed for inverter supply PCs and work just fine.
What isn't tolerant of bad AC wave forms is certain types of motors.
Re: generator supply, COVID has caused a run on lots of camping gear because it's something you can go and do for vacation when all the resorts are closed. RVs, bicycles, and boats are unobtanium too, and my local race shop has been booked 3-4 months out since April.
Speaking of predator generators, I put one in my trailer earlier this year to run the AC. I hadn't actually had occasion to really use it until yesterday (times I was at the track when it was hot I had shore power available), but it was 95 at Laguna which would be unseasonably warm for Monterey in July, let alone October. It was running fine, I shut it down when I went out for a session (wasn't sure I wanted to leave it running unattended) and when I got back it wouldn't restart. Starter turned, made the usual noises, but didn't start. I tried a bunch of times and eventually just gave up and figured it was one of those HF roll the dice things
Went out to look at it today and it started right up. Huh.
These are very quiet and refill them selves every day.
After this last power outage, which lasted maybe a total of 12 to 14 hours, my wife infoms me that we should consider a whole house generator. Honestly, I thought they were quite a bit more expensive than what I'm seeing online. 18kw Generac for $4k? 24kw for $5.5k? It's very tempting, given that policy may soon make reliable energy a thing of the past, as it is in Kalifornia.
I don't think that bigger is better. If you value portability at all, smaller is better. I'd get the smallest one that will do what you need. And don't expand your "needs". I had a 2000w yamaha inverter that I dearly loved, but it would not power my Airstream's AC. I finally broke down and bought the honda EU 2200i and it is awesome. Powers my 13500BTU AC like a champ. MIght have something to do with the 120cc motor vice 79cc of the yamaha. Either of them weigh about 50lbs and can be tossed around compared even to a 3000W inverter.
Also, inverter if you value your sanity. They are far quieter than contractor generators. Far. Far. You can circle your two best friends around the honda or yamaha and have a conversation without raising your voices. Unless you are talking about politics. Or best four cylinder engines. Or why the FD should have had a 2.0 8 cylinder engine rather than continuing development of a basically E36 M3ty rotary design.
Teh E36 M3 said:I don't think that bigger is better. If you value portability at all, smaller is better. I'd get the smallest one that will do what you need. And don't expand your "needs". I had a 2000w yamaha inverter that I dearly loved, but it would not power my Airstream's AC. I finally broke down and bought the honda EU 2200i and it is awesome. Powers my 13500BTU AC like a champ. MIght have something to do with the 120cc motor vice 79cc of the yamaha. Either of them weigh about 50lbs and can be tossed around compared even to a 3000W inverter.
Also, inverter if you value your sanity. They are far quieter than contractor generators. Far. Far. You can circle your two best friends around the honda or yamaha and have a conversation without raising your voices. Unless you are talking about politics. Or best four cylinder engines. Or why the FD should have had a 2.0 8 cylinder engine rather than continuing development of a basically E36 M3ty rotary design.
I could see getting the whole house generator and keeping a portable, but I can count exactly once that I didn't wheel the portable in the general area of the house and run household appliances off of it. So clearly, the whole house concept is the right way to go in order to minimize inconvenience, so long as cost is not an object, and they're not as costly as I previously thought they were.
My sanity is worth very little to me, so I do not care that the 11 HP Tecumseh is loud enough to make your eardrums bleed, only that it makes electricity when the utility company is unable to provide it. I'd be willing to bet that a propane fueled Generac whole house would be a good bit quieter than that.
I'm going to choose to ignore the comment about the FD and rotary engines, as it was clearly meant to be inflammatory. Shame on you, sir! 
I don't need extra noise to make me more crazy! I'm already hanging by a string most days.
Now as to the rotary.... imagine if mazda paired with Suzuki or Kawasaki, and built a v8 based off completely available and proven tech, made a MX-5RR with a 2.6-2.8 V8 that revs to 12k. Oh, berkeleying MY. It makes rotaries want to puke their apex seals.
1988RedT2 said:Teh E36 M3 said:I don't think that bigger is better. If you value portability at all, smaller is better. I'd get the smallest one that will do what you need. And don't expand your "needs". I had a 2000w yamaha inverter that I dearly loved, but it would not power my Airstream's AC. I finally broke down and bought the honda EU 2200i and it is awesome. Powers my 13500BTU AC like a champ. MIght have something to do with the 120cc motor vice 79cc of the yamaha. Either of them weigh about 50lbs and can be tossed around compared even to a 3000W inverter.
Also, inverter if you value your sanity. They are far quieter than contractor generators. Far. Far. You can circle your two best friends around the honda or yamaha and have a conversation without raising your voices. Unless you are talking about politics. Or best four cylinder engines. Or why the FD should have had a 2.0 8 cylinder engine rather than continuing development of a basically E36 M3ty rotary design.
I could see getting the whole house generator and keeping a portable, but I can count exactly once that I didn't wheel the portable in the general area of the house and run household appliances off of it. So clearly, the whole house concept is the right way to go in order to minimize inconvenience, so long as cost is not an object, and they're not as costly as I previously thought they were.
My sanity is worth very little to me, so I do not care that the 11 HP Tecumseh is loud enough to make your eardrums bleed, only that it makes electricity when the utility company is unable to provide it. I'd be willing to bet that a propane fueled Generac whole house would be a good bit quieter than that.
I'm going to choose to ignore the comment about the FD and rotary engines, as it was clearly meant to be inflammatory. Shame on you, sir!
We have a 5000 watt “portable” that has a 10 HP Briggs & Stratton old school valve in block engine. The “muffler” is 1” pipe thread and is mostly a strainer to prevent any broken engine parts from departing as opposed to any real noise reduction. You can hear it clearly from 4 houses away or about 600 feet. It’s wonderful when we lose power in cold weather but it’s so loud I try to shut down after 10 PM out of respect for the neighbors. I’m hoping the 5500 W Generac we grabbed off the side of the road with a “free” sign on it will be quieter as it has a large automotive style muffler on it. I have a new carburetor and tune up kit for it, just waiting for it to warm up a bit to work on it some more.
canoeists said:The key measurement in portable generators is total wattage. Portable generator with higher wattage means more power for higher wattage appliances and tools.
Can they power a canoe?
We don't have gas here, so lektrik waterheater. Which means our genset needs to put out a lot of watts at 220v. Our current backup is one of the storm responder things and it is simplify inadequate. It will run either the house and the lights and fireplace blower and the fridge, or it'll run the water heater, but not both. Our last Sparky was an old milsurp Onan diesel, that got murdered by mice. Great big loud fugly thing that ran the whole house, and used way, way less fuel per hour than the gas unit. Turns out that refilling the storm responder every few hours is a PITA. I'm in the market for one of the MEP milsurp diesel gensets. The 5kW rated ones apparently are rated at 5 kw per leg, so they're really putting out closer to 10. Prolly a big part of why the diesel we had (predecessor to the mep units) was able to handle the house and the water heater.. The other thing I like about these is they are in a mouseproof sound-reducing box. Nice!
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