Thanks, Obama

Perhaps as much us vs them culture as hiring practices. Stanford prison experiment highlighted some interesting stuff. Those put in an guard position tended to abuse those put in a prisoner position - to the point the experiment had to be stopped after a few days. Is it that far of a stretch to think those with police powers may tend to abuse those they encounter most often? Now throw in some force multipliers like advanced weapons, armor, electronics, groovy surveillance gizmos... I believe the common saying is to serve and protect, not command and control.

stanford prison experiment

Yes it seems that many focus funds on post crime action instead of dropping the funds on prevention. Prevention is nebulous and difficult to maintain, post crime capture and imprisonment is easy to process mentally.

Hope this sticks and some sneaky law isn't passed allowing shoe dealers to buy the equipment and somehow they get sold to police agencies anyway.

Don't disagree with the notion, but from what I heard (6:30 talking heads, so take it for what its worth) the order only applies to tracked vehicles, bayonets (really, why do cops need bayonets?) and grenade launchers.

The good news is there's still an outside chance an MRAP will end up in a local PD yard sale in a decade or so.

So how are they supposed to enforce Marshal law now??? OH, I forgot JADE HELM is coming...

In reply to kazoospec:

37 and 40mm grenade launchers have been used for eons as teargas, wooden block, and rubber pellet launchers.

So, wtf is this about?

oldtin wrote: Perhaps as much us vs them culture as hiring practices. Stanford prison experiment highlighted some interesting stuff. Those put in an guard position tended to abuse those put in a prisoner position - to the point the experiment had to be stopped after a few days. Is it that far of a stretch to think those with police powers may tend to abuse those they encounter most often? Now throw in some force multipliers like advanced weapons, armor, electronics, groovy surveillance gizmos... I believe the common saying is to serve and protect, not command and control. stanford prison experiment

You know the Stanford Prison Experiment is a textbook example of a biased experiment, right?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201310/why-zimbardo-s-prison-experiment-isn-t-in-my-textbook

I find this rather odd. Maybe it's just the difference in upper management, but the one thing I can say about The Armpit is the police force is professional and courteous, including the two sheriff's depts which split jurisdiction. Charleston and Goose Creek have good professional PD's, North Charleston not so much (well known around there and unfortunately recently reinforced).

Then I hear all this about other PD's and all the complaining about military equipment and have to wonder just how widespread the 'militarization' problems are, or are they more perceived than real?

I think it's two things:

• Police have been working hard on the arrest/ticket end of the business and acquiring all the tools they want for that stuff.
• Police have not been working on the "protect and serve" end of the policing business much at all or if they have they haven't been too attentive at making it known.

At the end of the day the police are civilians who should not dress up like Navy SEALs in full tactical gear standing around near a community pool to keep order. Their job there is to protect and serve, not intimidate and arrest. They should look and act (and dress) more like Andy Griffiths if they want to work with the public like members of the community. It's fine that the State Police SWAT team has sniper rifles, camo, and attack dogs because sometimes you need tough guys to do a hard job on-call but having regular beat cops look like a federal drug task force is bad PR.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I think it's two things: - Police have been working hard on the arrest/ticket end of the business and acquiring all the tools they want for that stuff. - Police have not been working on the "protect and serve" end of the policing business much at all or if they have they haven't been too attentive at making it known. At the end of the day the police are civilians who should not dress up like Navy SEALs in full tactical gear standing around near a community pool to keep order. Their job there is to protect and serve, not intimidate and arrest. They should look and act (and dress) more like Andy Griffiths if they want to work with the public like members of the community. It's fine that the State Police SWAT team has sniper rifles, camo, and attack dogs because sometimes you need tough guys to do a hard job on-call but having regular beat cops look like a federal drug task force is bad PR.

The only tacticool police officers I tend to recall seeing anywhere are around DC.

Otherwise, swat and riot gear look that way, but that's just how it is. All the regular beat officers have is a belt with cuffs, sidearm, first aid, and sometimes a taser/pepperspray/extendable baton. Otherwise, they just have a uniform and most around here have ballistic vests under the uniform.

Most of our officers have spare sidearms and a shotgun in their cars, some have AR pattern rifles as well. SWAT members keep their swat weapons with them at all times(our area is usually mp5 smg or remmy 700 bolt action)

As usual, it seems all blown out of proportion. One of our local departments ordered select fire Glock model 18's(same price as 17's) for their swat team and the news agencies screamed bloody murder. Kinda funny since they already had select fire mp5's.

I still enjoy watching "Adam-12" reruns and imagining we have that style of policing.

Little tolerance for 'bad eggs' on the force, pride in what they do and understanding that the job is "to protect & serve".

Yes, we do need SWAT capabilities, but that should not be the norm.

" . . . Columbia Police Capt. E.M. Marsh, who heads the department’s SWAT unit, said the city didn't have to purchase its MRAP vehicle from the military, though it pays $2,000 annually to participate in a military program, called the “1033 Program,” that supplies the vehicles, as well as other excess military equipment and items, to selected U.S. police agencies."

"The Department of Defense retains ownership of the vehicles, which 'must be used for at least one year or returned' to the military," said Tonya Johnson, a Defense Logistics Agency spokeswoman

Columbia's MRAP vehicle was repainted to a blue color to make it look less military, Marsh said, adding, "We looked at black, but to us it felt a lot more intimidating."

In a memo that was used for an online application for Columbia's MRAP vehicle, Marsh said the vehicle is needed to “protect our officers and the public during high risk counter drug and counter terrorism operations within the city of Columbia and the state of South Carolina.”

“Our agency often assists surrounding agencies during these types of critical operations,” Marsh wrote. “Fort Jackson is also located within the City of Columbia and we have a close working relationship with their tactical team and assist as needed.”

Asked last week if he considered Columbia a terrorism target, Marsh replied, “It’s not, but just like everywhere else, it could be.”

“If we never have to use this vehicle, we have accomplished our goal,” he said, noting the vehicle hasn’t been on an emergency calls so far but instead has been used mainly for a “few training exercises to drive it and in a few parades.”

Marsh said he would use the MRAP vehicle only in the most dangerous situations, such as someone firing a gun in public or threatening the public or officers with a gun or bomb. City officers recently responded to an incident in which a man was sitting on a porch pointing a shotgun at himself, but the MRAP vehicle was not used in that case, mainly because the man was not threatening anyone else, he said.

http://thenerve.org/news/2014/02/26/military-vehicles/

In reply to Strike_Zero:

Love that color.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I think it's two things: - Police have been working hard on the arrest/ticket end of the business and acquiring all the tools they want for that stuff. - Police have not been working on the "protect and serve" end of the policing business much at all or if they have they haven't been too attentive at making it known. At the end of the day the police are civilians who should not dress up like Navy SEALs in full tactical gear standing around near a community pool to keep order. Their job there is to protect and serve, not intimidate and arrest. They should look and act (and dress) more like Andy Griffiths if they want to work with the public like members of the community. It's fine that the State Police SWAT team has sniper rifles, camo, and attack dogs because sometimes you need tough guys to do a hard job on-call but having regular beat cops look like a federal drug task force is bad PR.

I could not agree with that more.

I also do not like the casual, "do you have any guns or drugs in your car" searches after the popo gets through giving you a speeding ticket. One thing I have noticed in my area is, if you are a black couple driving a minivan on the interstate and get stopped for speeding, you are going to get your vehicle searched.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Or as Ive been wondering lately, "When did 'protect and serve' turn into 'harass and extort'?"

The local cops here where I work (a NJ town consisting of mainly white & blue collar residential and dozens of office buildings), most of the regular beat cops dress in black-fatigues - which makes SOOO much sense when they're trying to direct traffic at night...

I may have to check, but I don't remember an event in SC that required the need of an MRAP. It's cool to look at, but IMO, it says "E36 M3 is real and we need equipment designed for war" to patrol the community . . .

In reply to Toyman01:

Whose jurisdiction is it to respond to an event like the biker gang violence in Waco TX (170 arrested, 9 dead, many injured), and how should they be outfitted?

Seems to me that an MRAP is not a bad thing to have, though there is no reason for it to show up at the local YMCA soccer tournament.

In reply to Ian F:

I don't remember ever seeing a cop directing traffic at night who didn't put on a reflective vest over whatever he was wearing.

Maybe they should talk to their Union? Sounds like an OSHA violation to me.

In reply to SVreX:

It's a sort of catch-22. Yes, there will be situations where a vehicle like this could be useful. But the problem is for it to be used effectively requires familiarity and training - which means getting it out and driving it around and doing stuff with it, even if the situation doesn't really call for it. And then you end up with the bad PR thing.

SVreX wrote: Whose jurisdiction is it to respond to an event like the biker gang violence in Waco TX (170 arrested, 9 dead, many injured), and how should they be outfitted?

I don't think LEOs over jurisdiction responded with MRAPs

Honestly, from what I read, they responded and performed VERY well!!

We have private military and police training facilities here where people can be trained in the proper operation and use of virtually any weapon or vehicle. They can replicate any environment, and even train in the use of "questionable" techniques which the military can't train.

Why drive them in the streets?

In reply to Strike_Zero:

That's true.

Maybe next time I won't use a real example.

In reply to SVreX:

First - Because it's a big, awkward vehicle that should be driven in regular traffic once in while? Sort of how fire fighters will take the trucks out now and then to train new drivers. I can't imagine driving one of those is similar to driving anything else on the road.

Second - Because those kind of training facilities aren't free and aren't always located near every police force, so you're spending money to send officers to train at them. In an era where many police forces are facing budget cuts.

In reply to Strike_Zero:

I shouldn't have mentioned Waco. That is a situation where everything appears to have gone reasonably well.

But my question stands. WHO should respond to extreme situations, and is a show of force EVER worthwhile?

In reply to Ian F:

Which is all the media's fault.....paint it any color other than flat black and take it to schools and give kids rides in it. The police and fire dept used to do that when I was a kid, but somewhere along the line the schools stopped allowing it. That's a community building exercise that benefits both public servants and the public.

In reply to Ian F:

Budget is an irrelevant argument.

If you can't afford to properly train, then you can't afford to have the equipment.

That's not hard.