The highest paid teachers in the US are on strike?

My mom taught Algebra at Gage Park High School (in Chicago) in 1956-1958. The stories she used to tell me about the Union heads hasn't changed in 50+ years.

I hope it ends soon so we can stop seeing it on the news.

I'm not sure I could spend all day every day dealing with someone else's snot monsters, er, I mean little angels, for $50k a year.

Having said that, I also see that the unions have pretty much destroyed any semblance of personal responsibility in this country, along with trial lawyers. Yes, I went there.

Remember all the outrage recently on this forum about the New Jersey kid whose dad stuck a recorder on him, then took the crappy way his teachers treated him and then turned it into a YouTube video? IIRC the teachers that were directly involved received administrative discipline, which doesn't mean squat. No personal responsibility taken. No apology to the kid or his dad. Nothing. That's what a union will do when it goes too far.

As always, the real answer lies somewhere in between. As it is: as long as the union member is not caught with a live boy or a dead girl they are pretty much assured they will come through anything OK. That's wrong.

Not producing is cause for dismissal in the private work world. that includes private schools; that is why people send their kids there. Charter schools are a hybrid of public/private, but the big thing they share with true private schools is ACCOUNTABILITY. The teacher and staff don't produce, the parents pull their kids out and the school loses funding. 'Nuff said.

alfadriver wrote: And I'm not so sure about the "charter" schools, since they are not only private (which means the real goal is to make money), they have different goals.

The charter school I taught at was public, the charter school my kids go to is public. They receive public funds and are open to the public, they are public schools.
The goals are different? What is the goal of a (public) charter school?

xd wrote: If it stops the charter bullE36 M3 more power to them.

What's wrong with charter schools?

While I have fairly strong opinions on both unions and education, I believe most of the problems in schools are societal, and these secondary issues will continue to fester until the root problem is fixed in some way

Parents not caring, large numbers of them.

Add to that the push to have schools basically try to raise the kids...feed them for free (breakfast and lunch) and in some cases over the weekend, put them in head start or Pre-K very early in life...

Unfortunately this may be a good thing for many of the individual kids short term...

Heck, the state pays for independent day care for the little ones independent of whether the parent(s) have jobs, in some cases.

No real solutions except the pragmatic individual solutions:

Move out of town (urban flight)

Put your kids in a Private school (Me)

or Home school them.

(all of which honestly helps to compound some of the problems, but my family is human, not statistics)

-James

Curmudgeon wrote: ...The teacher and staff don't produce, the parents pull their kids out and the school loses funding. 'Nuff said.

That's all good if the teachers are the primary problem. What if it's the kids?

All the bad kids (with the good) move on to another school and shut that one down... round and round.

Do you think the schools in bad districts are bad because they all hire bad teachers? That seems unlikely (don't really know how the hiring process works).

I suspect it is a bit of a chicken/egg thing, but I suspect it is mostly egg.

DrBoost wrote:

xd wrote: If it stops the charter bullE36 M3 more power to them.

What's wrong with charter schools?

You don't want me to get started on it, but long story short I started working with them before the voucher thing went through with white hat. Now I'm dealing with the fall out in a different capacity. When they were setup they were not meant to corporate b.s money machines.

Here is my problem with them. They keep all the kids till the district count day then boot out the kids who don't fit there Idea of a good student and keep the funds received from the state because the kid was actually enrolled on count day it does not matter if they were removed the next day the charter still keeps the money. Where do those kids end up? The public schools who received nothing in the way of funding for the kids they are servicing. Then they talk about how high their standard test scores are. berkeley that Public schools have to take all kids if we could pick and choose we would blow them out of the berkeleying water. We already kick the hell out of most of them if you take the sped kids scores out which count against the school as a whole and charter schools are not required to accept, but you don't see that talked about. If we could take kids get money kick them all out and focus on a select few with a basically unlimited budget we would kick ass on standard test scores. Charter schools are mostly bullE36 M3. They are just screwing your kids over and steal your tax dollars, but hey its usually the kids in the ghetto so who really gives a E36 M3. Oh yea, the teachers that show up every day and try to teach the kids who have been removed from charter schools for some dumb ass reason. While receiving no funds from the state.

Sorry for the rant I just really hate charter schools. Maybe there is a good one out there but Its not any of the ones I have ever dealt with. They come and go about every other year out here and there have been a lot.

In reply to xd:

You don't have a problem with charter schools, you have a problem with the people running them. It's the same problem people have with the non-charter versions.

It's the people who administer and the people who support under-performing teachers that are a root cause; not the only cause but definitely a big one.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: Oh and they strike almost every year. This doesn't even phase me anymore.

...First strike in 25 years...

oldsaw wrote: You don't have a problem with charter schools, you have a problem with the people running them. It's the same problem people have with the non-charter versions. It's the people who administer and the people who support under-performing teachers that are a root cause; not the only cause but definitely a big one.

It's really the problem with a lot of things, people simply cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Sure there are many that will, but there is always an a-hole. It's what I call the a-hole factor.

Do you really need all these rules for different things (e.g. don't rip off the educational system, don't dump toxic waste in the river, don 't rip off the elderly)? Sadly you do, because there is always the a-hole factor.

Reason #27893 I'm glad I don't have kids.

I remember my days in public school, and know the kind of education I received. That was 30 years ago, and I wouldn't want to send my kidlets to the education system that existed then.

I agree that the problems lie much higher than the teachers themselves; both administration and too-powerful unions do most of the damage (the parental involvement is another issue). However, as long as the teachers continue to accept the status quo, that's what they are stuck with. They need to elicit change from within.

My sister-in-law taught for a few years. Having listened to her, I am not surprised she now delivers textiles for high end events today. Another degree wasted.

I do truly feel sorry for any of you that have to deal with a public school.

xd wrote:

DrBoost wrote:

xd wrote: If it stops the charter bullE36 M3 more power to them.

What's wrong with charter schools?

You don't want me to get started on it, but long story short I started working with them before the voucher thing went through with white hat. Now I'm dealing with the fall out in a different capacity. When they were setup they were not meant to corporate b.s money machines. Here is my problem with them. They keep all the kids till the district count day then boot out the kids who don't fit there Idea of a good student and keep the funds received from the state because the kid was actually enrolled on count day it does not matter if they were removed the next day the charter still keeps the money. Where do those kids end up? The public schools who received nothing in the way of funding for the kids they are servicing. Then they talk about how high their standard test scores are. berkeley that Public schools have to take all kids if we could pick and choose we would blow them out of the berkeleying water. We already kick the hell out of most of them if you take the sped kids scores out which count against the school as a whole and charter schools are not required to accept, but you don't see that talked about. If we could take kids get money kick them all out and focus on a select few with a basically unlimited budget we would kick ass on standard test scores. Charter schools are mostly bullE36 M3. They are just screwing your kids over and steal your tax dollars, but hey its usually the kids in the ghetto so who really gives a E36 M3. Oh yea, the teachers that show up every day and try to teach the kids who have been removed from charter schools for some dumb ass reason. While receiving no funds from the state. Sorry for the rant I just really hate charter schools. Maybe there is a good one out there but Its not any of the ones I have ever dealt with. They come and go about every other year out here and there have been a lot.

I'll be honest, I didn't read your whole post because it's not an issue with charter schools, but the schools you've dealt with. The charter schools I've dealt with operated just like any school. The school I taught at, as well as the one that my kids attend do take new students after count day.
You saying that charter schools are evil because of one or two that you've dealt with is like saying all Muslims are terrorists or all black people are good at basketball.

In reply to DrBoost:

Charter schools are not like normal schools- they are tax paid for profit companies who accept public money and students to make that money.

You taught at a Charter school- do you have an education degree?

Charter schools are for profit companies pretending to replace public schools- in the end, they are to make MONEY. Teaching kids is a secondary goal.

And public schools are out to loose money? I know they do, but it's not supposed to be that way.
I'm not sure what personal experience you have with charter schools (kids? teaching experience? public school admin experience? NATEF advisor?) but based on my actual experience the thoughts you expressed are incorrect, but I'm sure they mirror the Detroit Free Press articles.

All that being said, the school I taught at was run by a terrible management company so I SHOULD be jaded. But the school itself was good. The company handicapped it but the school didn't make a profit, wasn't supposed to make a profit, and was focused on teaching kids, not making money.

My daughter was in a 'magnet' school which is a form of charter school. She had to take a test to even be considered for enrollment, the only input we had as parents was to live in the right school district and fill out the paperwork. No pass, no attend. The process was repeated each year. There was no bus service; we had to provide our own transportation.

Is that hardassed? Yes. But it weeded out the kids and parents who were not up to snuff. Is that fair? Depends on your definition of fair. I don't think it's fair to let some troublemaker kid disrupt my kid's learning. Or to have a curriculum dumbed down so everyone han have their self esteem stroked.

carguy123 wrote: That's just the way Unions work. The Teachers may not want to strike but they have to.

If most teachers were against the strike - what would happen to the union if the majority of the members refused to follow its decision and came to work anyway?

If someone in the Illinois state legislature really wanted to throw a hand grenade into the debate, they could introduce a bill to make Illinois a right to work state...

The problem with schools to me is three fold. First is the unions. All the teachers I know really hate the union and it spends way too much time protecting bad teachers. Second is the money for teachers. I know they don't get payed badly but especially once you reach masters level they aren't payed nearly as well as other professions with the same level of education so you get only people who have dreamed of being teachers (fairly rare) and those who know they can pass education courses in college and want to party. This is an even bigger problem once you get to math and science in high school because high school teachers have to have a degree in the field they are teaching and why would you teach if you could be making a lot more money doing something else with your physics, math or biology degree. Finally and the biggest problem is the parents. A lot of parents are complete idiots and don't give a E36 M3 about their kids. My fiance is a teacher and the stories she tells make me die inside a little.

There's two parallel discussions in this thread: unions and public education.

My take: unions really were needed way back when. Now that things have changed, the unions should 'back off' a bit but that would cause them to not be 'relevant' (or so it seems). Several years ago, the UPS drivers in the Northeast went on strike. The bad thing about that was the drivers all over the country had no choice but to go on strike as well. The UAW's members drinking at bars during work hours yet not getting fired has been documented ad nauseam. Teachers' unions have turned the public schools in many areas into just another jobs program; they are untouchable and they know it.

Public education runs hot and cold. Around here, the school district my daughter is in has two of the top schools in the state. Before you laugh, let me add they are ranked high on the national scale as well. But, you drive 25 miles and the schools suck mightily. Why? Uneven funding, thus difficulty attracting qualified teaching candidates and the buildings are garbage. Go a little further than the 25 miles and you get this: http://www.datelinecarolina.org/Global/story.asp?S=10280295 Or video http://www.corridorofshame.com/ That's SC schools, but I guarantee you every state has their equivalent.

I don't have the answer. But there's got to be one somewhere.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

carguy123 wrote: That's just the way Unions work. The Teachers may not want to strike but they have to.

If most teachers were against the strike - what would happen to the union if the majority of the members refused to follow its decision and came to work anyway? If someone in the Illinois state legislature really wanted to throw a hand grenade into the debate, they could introduce a bill to make Illinois a right to work state...

IMHO all states should be right to work states.

Curmudgeon wrote: I don't have the answer. But there's got to be one somewhere.

merit based pay for the teachers...youre an educated professional. You need to figure out a way to succeed at educating. The private sector has to deal with situational issues, so should teachers. Stop resting on the mantra that you fail because of bad parents. Stop using the "My ghetto ass students dont want to learn" excuse. If you made widgets, and you made them poorly, you wouldnt sell as many, and would likely get fired. Theres no reason why that mentality shouldnt be pervasive in the teaching world.

If youre a teacher and your pupils get bad grades, short term: lose pay/dont get raises. Long term: your sorry ass is fired. Spend less time figurign out ways to get the union to cover your ass, spend more time figuring out ways to do it right and win.

I get it that the evaluation of student learning, and "how to determine success in educating" is a slippery slope, and fodder for a whole other borderline-floundery thread. But, that big conversation aside, pay for play is the only way to get the desired result from the equation.

Your time has come and gone UAW/Teamsters/Teachers Union etc etc etc. Stop berking this country right up its lazy, corn fed ass. You did your job, now its time to go. Thanks for my 40 hour week and mandatory lunch breaks. Theres nothing left for you to do now. ALL Unions need to DIA berking F.

xd wrote: If it stops the charter bullE36 M3 more power to them.

Excuse me? My elder kid is the product of charter middle and high schools. She missed a grand total of 80 - 80 - out of 2400 points on her SAT. She graduated high school with enough college credits to either A) graduate college in 3 years, or B) get 2 degrees in 4 years if she wanted. She's currently pulling a 3.8 or 3.9 in her third year of college (half paid for by great grades and test scores) while taking almost all honors-level courses, serving as a writing fellow for underclassmen, doing field work for the archaeology lab, and working part-time at the local public library.

In all sincerity, I say this NOT to brag, but to counterpoint the accusation that charter schools are bullE36 M3. The charter middle school she attended was open to all who apply with no testing whatsoever, and admittance was a pure lottery. The high school did have some placement tests, but again, it was open to anybody who applied and seats were filled from random selection.

So why exactly are charter schools bullE36 M3?

4cylndrfury wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: I don't have the answer. But there's got to be one somewhere.

merit based pay for the teachers...youre an educated professional. You need to figure out a way to succeed at educating. The private sector has to deal with situational issues, so should teachers. Stop resting on the mantra that you fail because of bad parents. Stop using the "My ghetto ass students dont want to learn" excuse. If you made widgets, and you made them poorly, you wouldnt sell as many, and would likely get fired. Theres no reason why that mentality shouldnt be pervasive in the teaching world. If youre a teacher and your pupils get bad grades, short term: lose pay/dont get raises. Long term: your sorry ass is fired. Spend less time figurign out ways to get the union to cover your ass, spend more time figuring out ways to do it right and win. I get it that the evaluation of student learning, and "how to determine success in educating" is a slippery slope, and fodder for a whole other borderline-floundery thread. But, that big conversation aside, pay for play is the only way to get the desired result from the equation. Your time has come and gone UAW/Teamsters/Teachers Union etc etc etc. Stop berking this country right up its lazy, corn fed ass. You did your job, now its time to go. Thanks for my 40 hour week and mandatory lunch breaks. Theres nothing left for you to do now. ALL Unions need to DIA berking F.

Is it too late for you to get on the ballot for November?

alfadriver wrote: Charter schools are not like normal schools- they are tax paid for profit companies who accept public money and students to make that money. You taught at a Charter school- do you have an education degree? Charter schools are for profit companies pretending to replace public schools- in the end, they are to make MONEY. Teaching kids is a secondary goal.

Some ARE, some ARE NOT. Do not make blanket statements until you know the facts, please. The Charter schools my elder attended are purely non-profit organizations. The high school, in fact, is math/science oriented, and is subsidized by a consortium of large local companies (DuPont and Astra Zeneca, among others), because they just weren't getting properly educated entry-level scientists and engineers. They consider it an investment in the community that pays off for them in the long run - not in immediate profits at taxpayer expense.

The middle school both my kids attended - which has since expanded to include an elementary school and is working on adding high school - is a non-profit, parent-founded organization. I helped found it in my own small way. It was the epitome of grassroots, but high standards for academic achievement and behaviour have made it a resounding educational success. The kids there have the best test scores in the state by a wide margin, but not because of cherry picking - because everybody works together to make it happen. Anybody who wants to has the same shot at being part of it.

Oh, and on the subject of having a teaching degree - considering some of the bullE36 M3 curricula and bizarre teaching methods my kids were subjected to in our local non-charter elementary school, I don't give a crap if a teacher has been indoctrinated into post-modern teaching methods or not. I only care how effectively they teach my children.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

carguy123 wrote: That's just the way Unions work. The Teachers may not want to strike but they have to.

If most teachers were against the strike - what would happen to the union if the majority of the members refused to follow its decision and came to work anyway?

All of those teachers would be fired by the Union and there's nothing they could do about it. We're in a right-to-work state and the same thing would happen to us. (See my above post on all modern Unions sucking and needing to be killed off)