The next generation of electric cars

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Your optimism is awesome. But there's still going to be a rate limit on charging them- no matter how small and large (size and storage) they get.

Changing systems really just need the industry to agree on a form. Then the batteries can be charged and monitored at repeatable stations. Bad ones can be repaired.

Fuel cells, on the other hand. It's pretty easy to flow more energy with H2 than electricity.

I'd be interested if it wasn't a GM product. I just don't like how they put together cars.

I'm waiting for the affordable Tesla.

I get that there will be a charging rate limit, but I don't see how it will be a problem, at least for passenger cars. Like I said, even today's charging speed is sufficient when combined with a car that can be topped up at home, and possibly even at work.

There are a couple of standardized charging systems already that all EVs are using, the Tesla supercharger system is the oddball proprietary one.

H2 is an energy transportation & storage nightmare, and the sources used today are far from eco-friendly.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

It definitely isn't perfect for every situation, and has it's hurdles, especially the infrastructure things that you mentioned. I just don't think it's as difficult as you made it seem with your ICE swap comparison, and there's no denying that it's much faster than charging is.

You're more educated on this topic than I am, so I have to ask why would having a single battery, or single battery per vehicle manufacturer be all that bad? Seems like it would keep manufacturing costs way down, therefore allowing the EVs to have lower MSRPs, making them appeal to more people.

Sooo, what about slicing the ICE out of a Volt, and making a trailer that drags behind the bolt (or other electric car) for road trips? You could even make it increase the storage capacity of the Bolt a bit, or have bike/canoe/etc racks.

how many people even take road trips in small hatchbacks? I guess it just seems that most people who complain about road trip mileage aren't driving hatchbacks anyway.

STM317 wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: It definitely isn't perfect for every situation, and has it's hurdles, especially the infrastructure things that you mentioned. I just don't think it's as difficult as you made it seem with your ICE swap comparison, and there's no denying that it's much faster than charging is. You're more educated on this topic than I am, so I have to ask why would having a single battery, or single battery per vehicle manufacturer be all that bad? Seems like it would keep manufacturing costs way down, therefore allowing the EVs to have lower MSRPs, making them appeal to more people.

Yes swapping can be faster than charging, no doubt, but at what cost?

Sticking to a single battery technology - like Li-ion or anything else - is the EV apocalypse. Battery tech advancement is pretty much the source of EV advancement, and this would grind it to a halt. Forcing cars to stick to a single engine, or computers to stick to a single CPU socket would be good analogies to this.

Sticking to a single battery form factor is nowhere near as bad, but still filled with more and bigger problems than having to wait a few minutes for a charge on occasion. Packaging problems are the big issue. Imagine even having ICE cars stick a single fuel tank, a much less consequential change - cars with odd sizes or odd layouts (see: Impreza split fuel tank, half the American trucks out there with weird fuel tanks all over the place) would be impossible. All electric cars would have roughly the same range since their packs would all be the same size - if you want more, you have to make room for a whole second pack. If you want less...too bad.

Edit: And the reason we can't just use many small packs to get around this is the overhead of each pack...the container, charge controller, socket, cooling fittings, electronics needed on the car all go up with multiple packs. This is why today's EVs have a small number (often just 1) of large battery packs.

alfadriver wrote: My commute to work is 35 min. A 15min delay just to charge enough to get here is significant.

I would have to forget to plug my car for two weeks straight. At a 200 mile range, most people are still going to be able to go 4 or 5 days between charges, so forgetting will be less of a problem.

Plus, with cars being connected now, its pretty easy for your car to send an alert to your phone or email reminding you it needs a charge, so you can walk back out to your garage/parking space/whatever and plug it in.

GameboyRMH wrote: I get that there will be a charging rate limit, but I don't see how it will be a problem, at least for passenger cars. Like I said, even today's charging speed is sufficient when combined with a car that can be topped up at home, and possibly even at work. There are a couple of standardized charging systems already that all EVs are using, the Tesla supercharger system is the oddball proprietary one. H2 is an energy transportation & storage nightmare, and the sources used today are far from eco-friendly.

Time.

It's a problem for everyone.

Human nature means that you will forget to plug the car in. Someone already posted that they have done it multiple times, and they are car people.

If I forget to "charge" my gas car, I can fill it up in 2 min or less.

If I forget to charge my electric car, how long are people willing to wait?

Mind you, people already speed to work to gain 1-5 min.

You make it sound really trivial, but it's not.

ProDarwin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: My commute to work is 35 min. A 15min delay just to charge enough to get here is significant.

I would have to forget to plug my car for two weeks straight. At a 200 mile range, most people are still going to be able to go 4 or 5 days between charges, so forgetting will be less of a problem. Plus, with cars being connected now, its pretty easy for your car to send an alert to your phone or email reminding you it needs a charge, so you can walk back out to your garage/parking space/whatever and plug it in.

Actually, I think not having to do something daily will make it more likely that people will forget. Even with reminders.

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: I get that there will be a charging rate limit, but I don't see how it will be a problem, at least for passenger cars. Like I said, even today's charging speed is sufficient when combined with a car that can be topped up at home, and possibly even at work. There are a couple of standardized charging systems already that all EVs are using, the Tesla supercharger system is the oddball proprietary one. H2 is an energy transportation & storage nightmare, and the sources used today are far from eco-friendly.

Time. It's a problem for everyone. Human nature means that you will forget to plug the car in. Someone already posted that they have done it multiple times, and they are car people. If I forget to "charge" my gas car, I can fill it up in 2 min or less. If I forget to charge my electric car, how long are people willing to wait? Mind you, people already speed to work to gain 1-5 min. You make it sound really trivial, but it's not.

How far off are we from wireless charging? We do it for phones now.

It would seem to me having something like a garage pad that's just always there as the default charger would be ideal. Park over it... car gains charge.

GameboyRMH wrote:

STM317 wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: It definitely isn't perfect for every situation, and has it's hurdles, especially the infrastructure things that you mentioned. I just don't think it's as difficult as you made it seem with your ICE swap comparison, and there's no denying that it's much faster than charging is. You're more educated on this topic than I am, so I have to ask why would having a single battery, or single battery per vehicle manufacturer be all that bad? Seems like it would keep manufacturing costs way down, therefore allowing the EVs to have lower MSRPs, making them appeal to more people.

Yes swapping can be faster than charging, no doubt, but at what cost? Sticking to a single battery technology - like Li-ion or anything else - is the EV apocalypse. Battery tech advancement is pretty much the source of EV advancement, and this would grind it to a halt. Forcing cars to stick to a single engine, or computers to stick to a single CPU socket would be good analogies to this. Sticking to a single battery form factor is nowhere near as bad, but still filled with more and bigger problems than having to wait a few minutes for a charge on occasion. Packaging problems are the big issue. Imagine even having ICE cars stick a single fuel tank, a much less consequential change - cars with odd sizes or odd layouts (see: Impreza split fuel tank, half the American trucks out there with weird fuel tanks all over the place) would be impossible. All electric cars would have roughly the same range since their packs would all be the same size - if you want more, you have to make room for a whole second pack. If you want less...too bad. Edit: And the reason we can't just use many small packs to get around this is the overhead of each pack...the container, charge controller, socket, cooling fittings, electronics needed on the car all go up with multiple packs. This is why today's EVs have a small number (often just 1) of large battery packs.

It's quite interesting that you think the charge rate limit is so trivial, but having a changeable battery back is so much more difficult.

I think forgetting to plug in is a pretty trivial problem to solve. Look at today's cell phones. People don't often forget to plug their phones in, and a dead phone carries less consequence, and AFAIK none have location-aware reminders to remind people to do so. If your car is dead and you're, say, 20 miles from work and you can charge there, a 6-minute quick charge would be enough with a present-day car.

An automatic charger plug-in system like Telsa's could save any idiocracy character who evolves to adapt to all this technology.

I wonder if when cars first came out, people worried about forgetting to fill their cars with gas while the horse could just have a snack, or even head out hungry. And back then you had to check your fuel level with a dipstick.

In reply to xflowgolf:

Someone said that there's a wireless charging system available now. That would be a big step forward to eliminate human error in terms of making sure the car is charged.

And being massively rate limited will not be as big of an issue.

GameboyRMH wrote: I think forgetting to plug in is a pretty trivial problem to solve. Look at today's cell phones. People don't often forget to plug their phones in, and a dead phone carries less consequence, and AFAIK none have location-aware reminders to remind people to do so. If your car is dead and you're, say, 20 miles from work and you can charge there, a 6-minute quick charge would be enough with a present-day car. An automatic charger plug-in system like Telsa's could save any idiocracy character who evolves to adapt to all this technology. I wonder if when cars first came out, people worried about forgetting to fill their cars with gas while the horse could just have a snack, or even head out hungry. And back then you had to check your fuel level with a dipstick.

So a 6 min delay in driving to work isn't a big deal???

And I'm sure there were issues with the lack of fuel availability in the beginning. But if there's a station, it's not as if it takes long to fill....

xflowgolf wrote: How far off are we from wireless charging? We do it for phones now. It would seem to me having something like a garage pad that's just always there as the default charger would be ideal. Park over it... car gains charge.

Drayson's racing EV already has it, I don't know how fast it charges though. It could be an option, some very efficient new wireless chargers are coming out now.

GameboyRMH wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: How far off are we from wireless charging? We do it for phones now. It would seem to me having something like a garage pad that's just always there as the default charger would be ideal. Park over it... car gains charge.

Drayson's racing EV already has it, I don't know how fast it charges though. It could be an option, some very efficient new wireless chargers are coming out now.

What kind of power delivery can they do? Even at 100% efficiency.

alfadriver wrote: So a 6 min delay in driving to work isn't a big deal??? And I'm sure there were issues with the lack of fuel availability in the beginning. But if there's a station, it's not as if it takes long to fill....

If I forget to put gas in my car, a 6min delay is about the best-case scenario. So far I've only had to stop for gas before work once in my life. And that's without a reminder too.

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: How far off are we from wireless charging? We do it for phones now. It would seem to me having something like a garage pad that's just always there as the default charger would be ideal. Park over it... car gains charge.

Drayson's racing EV already has it, I don't know how fast it charges though. It could be an option, some very efficient new wireless chargers are coming out now.

What kind of power delivery can they do? Even at 100% efficiency.

I don't know a whole lot about wireless charging, but there's a unit on the market now that will fully charge a Leaf from empty in under 3.5 hours, it costs under $2k.

Edit: Whoops that's the charging time for a Volt, Leaf is up to 8 hours. From the pics, there's room for more though:

https://www.pluglesspower.com/

In reply to alfadriver:

Inductive charging from overhead(or buried) cables along major motorways?

GameboyRMH wrote:

alfadriver wrote: So a 6 min delay in driving to work isn't a big deal??? And I'm sure there were issues with the lack of fuel availability in the beginning. But if there's a station, it's not as if it takes long to fill....

If I forget to put gas in my car, a 6min delay is about the best-case scenario. So far I've only had to stop for gas before work once in my life. And that's without a reminder too.

Well, I have 3 gas stations within a mile of my home that are on the route to work. And since the pumps deliver 10 gal of gas in about a min- it's not a lot to wait. Which fills me up for another week. Not just to get to work.

petegossett wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Inductive charging from overhead(or buried) cables along major motorways?

Theoretically, sure. But a "slot car" design, like subways use, would be more efficient, and probably cheaper. And at that point, the question becomes- why not spend the money on public transportation instead.

I'm pretty sure my next vehicle purchase will be electric.

Main driver for me is that my wife moves about 2 unwalkable/non-bike-able miles between the house and the clinic 2-3 times a day, which is a terrible thing to do to an ICE vehicle. If she has to run errands into town, that might take it up to 30 miles in a day.

If the Bolt can haul an Irish Wolfhound in the back with the rear seats down, that would also be points in its favor!

There are 5 EVs in my extended family: two Leaf's, two Model S's, and my Soul -- so we have some experience here.

My daily commute is 36-40 miles (depends on route) and consumes about 38-45% of my charge (depends on avg speed and weather). I routinely charge to 100% overnight, but there have been times that I forgot to plug-in... but I still have plenty to make my round-trip a second time. There are also pay-per-use charging options near my office if I need them, meaning that as long as my car has a 20% charge to get me to work I can complete my daily commute.

My household is me, my wife and two children. Since getting my Soul EV our primary vehicle has moved from our 7-seat SUV to my 5-seat subcompact hatchback; the Sorento spends little time outside our garage anymore.

GameboyRMH wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: How far off are we from wireless charging? We do it for phones now. It would seem to me having something like a garage pad that's just always there as the default charger would be ideal. Park over it... car gains charge.

Drayson's racing EV already has it, I don't know how fast it charges though. It could be an option, some very efficient new wireless chargers are coming out now.

What kind of power delivery can they do? Even at 100% efficiency.

I don't know a whole lot about wireless charging, but there's a unit on the market now that will fully charge a Leaf from empty in under 3.5 hours, it costs under $2k. Edit: Whoops that's the charging time for a Volt, Leaf is up to 8 hours. From the pics, there's room for more though: https://www.pluglesspower.com/

That's a pretty nice option, especially as it's conceivable that you could integrate that with automatic parking systems that are in cars. Putting it in the correct spot every time.

BTW, the tech specs have it at 3kW of output.

Consider this: What are the odds of being stranded by forgetting to charge, with a reminder, vs. being stranded by a mechanical breakdown on an ICE? I know I've had waaaaay more breakdowns due to ICE problems than fuel outages. Heck that's why both my cars are down right now. Failed unobtanium dizzy leading to full ignition & management swap on one, carb problem on the other.