The story of stuff

I think there are a lot of broad-based generalizations being thrown around here. I'd be happy to have an intelligent conversation about conservation, recycling, the concept of a finite amount of real estate and resources, the decrease in quality products/increase in demand for cheap, unreliable "throw away" items, etc.

I stopped watching the video because it quickly turned from what seemed like an educational video on waste to what seemed like an anti-right, anti-capitalist, anti-war, pro-nanny state propaganda film. (had she not led into the "it's government's job to take care of us" with the tax dollars dumped in the tank's......tank graphic, it wouldn't have been quite as annoying and eyeroll inducing.)

And for the last berkeleying time, I don't ever recall myself or anyone else here saying "There should be no laws or taxes or USPS or an FDA or EPA or Army." I'm not a berkeleying anarchist, and not to speak out of turn, but I'm pretty sure Dave's not either.

poopshovel wrote: I think there are a lot of broad-based generalizations being thrown around here. I'd be happy to have an intelligent conversation about conservation, recycling, the concept of a finite amount of real estate and resources, the decrease in quality products/increase in demand for cheap, unreliable "throw away" items, etc.

yes me too, but.. as most things do here.. It turned into a kill the progessive fest.

Sorry- never mind.

Eric

alfadriver wrote: Sorry- never mind. Eric

Awwwww, really? I was about to reply. I'll try to do it from memory:

EPA - No problem with the entity as a whole, but certainly some specifics. I'm also not anti-cafe standards. They've been too low for too long.

FDA - Absolutely cool with that. I'd actually like to see more restrictions there as well. Everything I buy should have a big-ass sticker stating the country of origin; at the cost of the business, not the taxpayer. I do believe that the "drug" portion needs a massive overhaul. This is one of those areas that needs less government interference, IMO.

Regarding "the nanny state has always existed." Not to sound like an asshat, but buy a history book. Read it.

Regarding "Pretending like your money doesn't go to some homeless guy." I'm TOTALLY cool with helping to take care of people who are physically/mentally incapable to take care of themselves. I am not at all cool with the welfare scam that rewards mediocrity and criminals with free food, so they have more cash to spend on alcohol, cigarettes, cell phones, and cable tv.

I'm also not at all cool with the government stealing money out of my pocket to payout SS to people who don't need it...at a lower rate of return than just sticking the damned money in a savings account.

PS: I missed the labor standards part (assuming you were referring to labor standards and not unions-) I absolutely am pro-labor standards. I am, however, anti-trade with countries that do not share the basic labor standards found in the US. Allowing trade from countries that allow slave-labor is abhorrent, not only from a moral standpoint, but in the interest of keeping American manufacturing alive.

There are my "lines" on the entities you mentioned. Sufficient answers?

I think intergral to a sensible debate, as brought up in the video, is the short range view of manufacturing and consumption in the USA. We belive that we can continue to consume on this level with no reprecussions to ourselves.

I got a huge beef with food and food aditives to make food easier to grow and more "healthy." We don't know what eating all of this hybrid food is doing to us? We don't know the total effects of nuking something in a plastic bowl for dinner? Or the loss of ecosystems due to overdevlopment, cause everyone has to have a culdesac...

Or.. The big problem with fair trade and workers rights in other countries. (I know my company had a code of conduct all foreign suppliers had to sign to make sure they were not employing child labor or had any unsafe practices. There was no enforcement though and the foreign companies knew it.) I think we have a massive do as I say not as I do problem in this country. I'll leave it at that.

I think one interesting note is that many people agree that companies, especially publically traded ones, are very shortsigted in their business decisions. So, they're the same way with their manufacturing practices. I've only seen a change in their thinking, when they were forced due to the cost of high engery last year. But.. At the same time.. We, the public, are a product of that same short sigthedness as well. We don't save and we buy like hell. Same goes for the environment. A perfect example was where I used to live in Charleston SC. Due to the massive building around the barrier islands, there was/is a loss of marshes and tidal flats. These areas are natural buffers to storm surges. So, when the next hurricane hits, it'll be worse than it would have been, had we not built there..

anyway.. I'm ranting.

As for welfare fraud. I keep hearing that rallying cry and while I know it goes on, I don't know the extent. Some poeple say its rampant, some say its not. I wonder how much really goes on and what % of total monies is it. Meaning if we were to stamp it out completely would it really have an impact on our bottom line. If we're already handing out hundreds of billions to companies, what is a couple million in welfare fraud... Not a whole lot.

just for fun: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarequeen.htm

I stopped watching because my internet connection is a bit slow and her early stuff did not make me want to wait for it to buffer for a third time.

The beginning didn't get to the point fast enough. It wasn't even preaching a different way of life, just telling us how horrible we were, and the evidence she was using to support this was shaky and blown out of proportion. The more it went on, the less I wanted to listen to what she had to say.

Maybe if she'd presented it better, I'd have been willing to sit through it. It didn't tell me anything of value that I don't already know.

As an English major I won't jump on people for little grammatical errors, but if you present information in a way that repulses me, you have failed to communicate. It doesn't matter if you're right or have the best message, if you make me not want to hear it.

It would be like make the best product but using a marketing campaign that repulses me. I would actively avoid buying a Prius if they marketed it by telling me what a horrible wasteful person I am for trying to keep a small 15yo car tuned up.

poopshovel wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Sorry- never mind. Eric

Awwwww, really? I was about to reply. I'll try to do it from memory: EPA - No problem with the entity as a whole, but certainly some specifics. I'm also not anti-cafe standards. They've been too low for too long. FDA - Absolutely cool with that. I'd actually like to see more restrictions there as well. Everything I buy should have a big-ass sticker stating the country of origin; at the cost of the business, not the taxpayer. I do believe that the "drug" portion needs a massive overhaul. This is one of those areas that needs less government interference, IMO. Regarding "the nanny state has always existed." Not to sound like an asshat, but buy a history book. Read it. Regarding "Pretending like your money doesn't go to some homeless guy." I'm TOTALLY cool with helping to take care of people who are physically/mentally incapable to take care of themselves. I am not at all cool with the welfare scam that rewards mediocrity and criminals with free food, so they have more cash to spend on alcohol, cigarettes, cell phones, and cable tv. I'm also not at all cool with the government stealing money out of my pocket to payout SS to people who don't need it...at a lower rate of return than just sticking the damned money in a savings account. PS: I missed the labor standards part (assuming you were referring to labor standards and not unions-) I absolutely am pro-labor standards. I am, however, anti-trade with countries that do not share the basic labor standards found in the US. Allowing trade from countries that allow slave-labor is abhorrent, not only from a moral standpoint, but in the interest of keeping American manufacturing alive. There are my "lines" on the entities you mentioned. Sufficient answers?

Sorry, I just don't care anymore. It's tiring to read people bash our government, and think it's so useless, but love most of what your taxes do.

Rant all you want.

ignorant wrote:

bigbrainonbrad wrote: They were taling about this on Red Eye a couple nights ago, long story short a big pinko hippie rant that wouldn't have been possible without American consumerism to provide the cheap but high quality video camera and computer software to make the film. Hypocrisy is great!!!

lame.... Hypocrisy is those who say we don't want a government to take care of us and then want a FDA and EPA and Army... edit: also forgot to add like keeping their fingers because they're not working 80 billion hours a week in an unsafe shop in a factory town.. <-- dudes working there are working with 2000 degree iron making your manhole covers. I've also seen similar shops where they have sandals and a leather apron making turbocharger parts..... If we didn't have a government, you'd be working there.

Um. India HAS a government. Like I said, are we going to invade India and make them change working conditions?

'No blood for manhole covers!'

Jensenman wrote: Um. India HAS a government. Like I said, are we going to invade India and make them change working conditions? 'No blood for manhole covers!'

umm vote with your wallet maybe...

You're going weird with this invasion stuff...

No weirder than she was going with all her stuff. In her view, it's our government's place to tell the corporations to do things differently overseas than they do now.

She reminds me a lot of that woman who sued Caterpillar because some bulldozers were sold to israel and their government used them to bulldoze Palestinian settlements. She claimed Caterpillar should have known that would happen and thus should not have sold the equipment.

EDIT: The woman was named Rachel Corrie. Her family sued Caterpillar after her death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Jensenman wrote: No weirder than she was going with all her stuff. In her view, it's our government's place to tell the corporations to do things differently overseas than they do now.

The government can tell people to do things without using force.

Sorry, I just don't care anymore.

Sorry to hear that. I care a lot. (hum along if you know the tune.)

A big +1 on your last post, ignorant. I'll pick at this one, and try to give you a very real, very unbiased answer:

As for welfare fraud. I keep hearing that rallying cry and while I know it goes on, I don't know the extent. Some poeple say its rampant, some say its not. I wonder how much really goes on and what % of total monies is it. Meaning if we were to stamp it out completely would it really have an impact on our bottom line. If we're already handing out hundreds of billions to companies, what is a couple million in welfare fraud... Not a whole lot

The corporate welfare fraud sickens me more than the individual welfare fraud, and both "sides" (politicians) are guilty as sin. On the corporate side, I'll say this: IMO It shouldn't happen. Ever. Under any circumstance. Incentives for, say, more fuel efficient, affordable vehicles? Maybe. But to what extent? And to what extent in the next election, and the next one. That's a big problem with goverment subsidy programs; once they're in place, one candidate is evil for wanting to cut spending for said program, the other is a hero for wanting to dump more of "the government's money" at it.

On the individual side, it is DEFINITELY rampant in certain areas. I can say this with first hand experience. It's a joke to the people who do it. They can't imagine why anyone wouldn't lie to receive it, so much so that they will, no BS, pound out more kids to get more checks. Sadly, working shmoes like you and I have to pay. Next time you're down this way, let's take a tour of the trailer parks in Norcross. You'll see 2008 duallie quad cab pickups with 24" wheels, and a like-new enclosed trailer that houses 10's of thousands in lawn or painting equipment. On top of a very decent, mostly cash income, these dudes are pulling in a check for every puppy they pound out. When they get sick, they don't pay. You do. Check out "Health and Human Services" and "Social Security" VS. "Department of Education:"

http://www.federalbudget.com/

I've also seen fraud recently with people we know personally. It's berkeleyed up and sickening. They're working 3 days a week, eating like kings 7 days a week, while we're struggling to pay the taxes that fund their fraud. Needless to say, we don't have much contact with these folks anymore.

SS is a berkeleying joke. While it was set up to make sure that the elderly didn't starve to death or get kicked out on the street, it's become a pathetic excuse for a forced retirement program. The people who really need it get pennies. The people who don't need it use it to make payments on their Bentley (<---true story; not an exageration.)

Is the individual fraud a drop in the bucket compared to the corporate bailouts? Doubtful. But I'd speculate that it's a whoooooooooole lot more than a "couple" million.

My $.02.

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: No weirder than she was going with all her stuff. In her view, it's our government's place to tell the corporations to do things differently overseas than they do now.

The government can tell people to do things without using force.

Har de har har har. (wipes eyes) Sorry dude. I know you mean well, but that statement was just so naive.

See: North Korea Iran Iraq under Saddam Cambodia Burma China etc ad nauseam

Jensenman wrote: Har de har har har. (wipes eyes) Sorry dude. I know you mean well, but that statement was just so naive.

and your statement is fatalistic

in the long run diplomacy rules force... PERIOD. See WWI and why it caused WWII, and the current problems we are having in the middle east. Yup.. That was a great idea..

poopshovel wrote: The corporate welfare fraud sickens me more than the individual welfare fraud, and both "sides" (politicians) are guilty as sin.

agreed.

poopshovel wrote:

Sorry, I just don't care anymore.

Sorry to hear that. I care a lot. (hum along if you know the tune.)

It's not that I don't care.

I'm just starting not to care to argue about the goverment. It's quickly becoming pointless.

You rant a while about some scamming- and many "haters" reaction to that is to scrap the system. When it would be far more productive to fix it. And WE can fix it- how about turning your "friends" in? That would be more productive than scrapping the system for the bad apples.

Think about it this way- a thread that could have been about reducing waste and some consumerism has devolved into a government bashing thread. And I got into it, too, shame on me.

E-

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Har de har har har. (wipes eyes) Sorry dude. I know you mean well, but that statement was just so naive.

and your statement is fatalistic in the long run diplomacy rules force... PERIOD. See WWI and why it caused WWII, and the current problems we are having in the middle east. Yup.. That was a great idea..

Yeah, and see Somalia for how diplomacy breaks down in the face of tribal hatreds. Let me see someone negotiate with Osama bin Laden. As long as humans are, well, human the threat of war will hang over us.

Carl von Clausewitz:

"War is a continuation of diplomacy using other means."

This woman really thinks all we have to do is snap our fingers and the overseas sweatshop governments will fall right into line. Let me tell you what will happen if she were to force her way onto us and thus these other governments:

1). We quit buying all this cheap overseas crap. 2). The companies overseas start firing people. 3). Those people begin to starve. 4). 'No place on earth is more than 3 meals from a revolution'. 5). They blame us for their problems. 6). Another 9/11.

BTW, if you go back to last year's news stories, you can find stories of people in China who were laid off from their jobs because sales to the US were down and these people were barricading themselves inside factories and rioting in the streets. Here's one story: http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2008-11-26-china-factory-riot_N.htm Not much mention of how the Chinese government handled it, but I got a pretty good idea.

Like I said, be careful what she wishes for because we just might get it.

alfadriver wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

Sorry, I just don't care anymore.

Sorry to hear that. I care a lot. (hum along if you know the tune.)

It's not that I don't care. I'm just starting not to care to argue about the goverment. It's quickly becoming pointless. You rant a while about some scamming- and many "haters" reaction to that is to scrap the system. When it would be far more productive to fix it. And WE can fix it- how about turning your "friends" in? That would be more productive than scrapping the system for the bad apples. Think about it this way- a thread that could have been about reducing waste and some consumerism has devolved into a government bashing thread. And I got into it, too, shame on me. E-

poopshovel said: I'd be happy to have an intelligent conversation about conservation, recycling, the concept of a finite amount of real estate and resources, the decrease in quality products/increase in demand for cheap, unreliable "throw away" items, etc.

yes.. funny how everyone harps on the government part of her video, but not the part where she says we have to take responsibility for our own buying habits....

in the long run diplomacy rules force... PERIOD.

Maybe from an ideological standpoint we probably feel much better about the use of diplomacy to effect a result... but for most of the last 150yrs we have successfully used force to grow an empire. The United States has used violence or the threat of violence to make itself a very wealthy and powerful nation.

Diplomacy is a soft, fuzzy word describing a negotiation where you expect to get what you want "or else". It is greatly aided by having a big stick to back up that "or else" part.

Jensenman wrote:

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Har de har har har. (wipes eyes) Sorry dude. I know you mean well, but that statement was just so naive.

and your statement is fatalistic in the long run diplomacy rules force... PERIOD. See WWI and why it caused WWII, and the current problems we are having in the middle east. Yup.. That was a great idea..

Yeah, and see Somalia for how diplomacy breaks down in the face of tribal hatreds. Let me see someone negotiate with Osama bin Laden. As long as humans are, well, human the threat of war will hang over us. Carl von Clausewitz: "War is a continuation of diplomacy using other means."

And.. We're winning the war by really eradicating Al Qaeda.. I think it's rather naive to think that force is the only and rather simplistic.

mad_machine wrote: yes.. funny how everyone harps on the government part of her video, but not the part where she says we have to take responsibility for our own buying habits....

All my hobbies involve a machine that belches smoke made from burning solvents as fuel. I participate in lampooning my government, I work for a corporation and own another... I am a consumer whore.

OH MY. I AM THE PROBLEM. (sorry).

heh. I do the same, I work for several coporations who do not put out a single thing you can buy. Casinos are the ultimate expression of consumerism.

I also own a business.. where my only output are DVDs of people making complete idiots of themselves doing karoke at parties,

My hobbies down include vehicles that pollute for no real gain other than pleasure.

the Point is.. non of us are as bad as most of the people around us. The name of the game here is recycling, usually on the cheap, of other people's cast offs into something good and usable.

mad_machine wrote: yes.. funny how everyone harps on the government part of her video, but not the part where she says we have to take responsibility for our own buying habits....

I haven't addressed this part because I really haven't felt the need to.

My buying habits are not driven by fashion or always having the latest. I honestly do not give a damn what anyone thinks of what I own or what I drive, etc. If something gets scratched, I live with the scratch. If someone does not like what I do, what I drive or how my stuff looks then they should avert their gaze.

I buy from necessity and I try to buy stuff that will last even if it costs extra and regardless of country of origin. Sometimes that means buying overseas stuff (my plasma cutter came from Italy) sometimes from the US (my welder was made here in America). The QA1 shocks and springs on the Jensenator were made in China. The poly bushings came from Australia. My tools are US made Craftsman for the most part, although I do have some Harbor Freight stuff.

I recycle other people's cast off crap to build my hobby cars.

You just about can't buy consumer electronics that aren't made overseas but I try to buy the ones I feel will last. That's why I pass by the lower end garbage and go for the middle on that kind of thing. The hell with the high end stuff, that's for the showoffs. (I can hear the rumblings beginning now!)

OTOH:

My stepmother buys all KINDS of crap. She will hire a crew to decorate the Christmas tree each year (no, that is not a joke) and it is covered with all kinds of Chinese made ornaments. Gotta be a different 'theme' each year. Last year's 'theme' gets tossed out, can't reuse it because it's, well, last year's. She irks the bejeezus out of me that way. Only woman I have ever known who spent $300 on a T shirt and shorts set because they were 'cute'.

I can't help what others do, only myself.

As for welfare fraud, I got disgusted with welfare when I was a poor person. I was working my fanny off doing a shovel(literally) job for six dollars an hour. I was married with a baby. I went to the grocery store with our last twenty dollars to get a few basic items for dinner. The lady in front of me at checkout had two hundred dollars of groceries. Not cheap stuff, but good name brands. She was peeling off food stamps to pay for them. She came up short, and pulled a wad(not two or three, but two or three hundred dollars worth) of twenty dollar bills out of her pocket to cover the difference. As I walked out the store to climb in my two hundred dollar car to go home, she was loading her stuff in her new caddy. You just can't imagine how much that pissed me off. Ever since then I have been in the work or die crowd. Freedom includes freedom to starve and if I were earth czar, that is exactly what they would do. If your busting your hump and can't quite make ends meet I will help you in any way I can. You need help with medical for your children because you can't afford it even though you bust your but every day. No problem, I have been there done that. If you won't help yourself, then starve. Lose your job, you've got six months to get another. Can't find one that pays as much? Maybe you should have saved more and spent less. Maybe it's time for a life style change. Yeah I know, I am a cold bastard but life sucks some times. Get over it and move on.

As far a conservation goes, I do it not to "save the planet" but because I have been poor before. One thing that will do for you is make you a cheap bastard. I buy the cheap old stuff because I work hard for my money and I want it to go as far as possible. If I can buy something for next to nothing and put some sweat equity in it and not buy new, I'm all for it. I drive a Ford van that gets 14 MPG because it does what I need it to do and cost twenty five thousand less than the fuel efficient Sprinter that gets 20 MPG. Planet saving comes down to economics. What I can afford I will do. What I can't afford won't happen.

My problem with the government isn't a left or right thing. I don't care if you are Republican or Democrat. They are both two sides of the same coin. My twenty year old son has a better grip on reality than ninety five percent of the politicians. That is a shame. They talk the good talk and then do what ever the hell they want. We don't need to overhaul welfare or medical or even environmental parts of the government. We need to overhaul the politicians. Until some honorable people go to Washington to serve the people and not their own interests we will never "Save the Planet" or even the country. I hate to say it, but the current president is no better than the last. It's like watching TV. Just a different version of the same old crap. I wouldn't let either one of them babysit my kids or handle my checkbook.