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seann
seann New Reader
7/14/08 11:41 a.m.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/opinion/13sun2.html?em&ex=1216180800&en=7e2fa499fef21b32&ei=5087%0A

There was a little thread going awhile ago about immigration reform where a lot of people expressed the opinion that it would be a lot better if they focused on cracking down on employers rather than the illegal workers. The article above has a link to an essay that was written by an interpreter that was involved in the proccessing of illegal workers that were arrested in the raid of a meat packing plant in Iowa. I'll just let you read it, but it really surprised me.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
7/14/08 12:27 p.m.

we don't need to treat them fairly..

We need to pay money to lock them up.

aircooled
aircooled Dork
7/14/08 12:35 p.m.

I honestly don't see why it is so hard to just document these people, inoculate them and give them some sort of green card. They clearly are needed, citizens clearly do not what to have their jobs...

On a somewhat interesting related note. When an illegal uses your social security number to get a job (not a lot of checking going on obviously), they are putting money into the Social Security system under your number, but since the names don't match the money does not go into your account or SS, it goes into the treasury (not that there really any difference between the two these days)! Amazing that they can figure out something is wrong when they route the money, but can't bother to notify anyone of the anomaly.

NoBrakesRacing
NoBrakesRacing New Reader
7/14/08 1:20 p.m.

Sadly this goes on all the time, in either large scale such as this or person by person. Nothing to do with a nation of laws but all with blind zealousness and dehumanizing of those that are powerless to defend themselves.

The $$ benefit to the country is mentioned inside of the essay too.

Hopefully we can all individually learn from this injustices and try to change them at all levels we may reach. From other people's minds to the electoral process.

Take care

Javier

A few chosen parts: Pg.5 His case and that of a million others could simply be solved by a temporary work permit as part of our much overdue immigration reform. “The Good Lord knows I was just working and not doing anyone any harm.” This man, like many others, was in fact not guilty. “Knowingly” and “intent” are necessary elements of the charges, but most of the clients we interviewed did not even know what a Social Security number was or what purpose it served. This worker simply had the papers filled out for him at the plant, since he could not read or write Spanish, let alone English. But the lawyer still had to advise him that pleading guilty was in his best interest. He was unable to make a decision. “You all do and undo,” he said. “So you can do whatever you want with me.”...Before he signed with a scribble, he said: “God knows you are just doing your job to support your families, and that job is to keep me from supporting mine.”

Pg.9 What is worse, the inflated charge, via the binding 11(C)(1)(c) Plea Agreement, reduced the judges to mere bureaucrats, pronouncing the same litany over and over for the record in order to legalize the proceedings, but having absolutely no discretion or decision-making power. As a citizen, I want our judges to administer justice, not a federal agency. When the executive branch 10 forces the hand of the judiciary, the result is abuse of power and arbitrariness, unworthy of a democracy founded upon the constitutional principle of checks and balances.

Pg.10 The search revealed that a person who was assigned one of the social security numbers used by an employee of Agriprocessors has reported his/her identity being stolen.” That is, out of 983 only 1 number (0.1%) happened to coincide by chance with a reported identity theft. The charge was clearly unfounded; and the raid, a fishing expedition. “On April 16, 2008, the US filed criminal complaints against 697 employees, charging them with unlawfully using SSNs in violation of Title 42 USC §408(a)(7)(B); aggravated identity theft in violation of 18 USC §1028A(a)(1); and/or possession or use of false identity documents for purposes of employment in violation of 18 USC §1546.”

Pg.15 With quiet anguish, a mature all-American woman, a mother, said something striking, as only the plain truth can be.“This is not humane,” she said. “There has to be a better way.”

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/14/08 1:20 p.m.
ignorant wrote: we don't need to treat them fairly.. We need to pay money to lock them up.

Just out of curiosity, who's going to pay the taxes to hold them in this place you want to lock them up? I'd much rather spend the money on a plane ticket, since that's just one day of incarseration...

Why should we not treat them fairly? They are people, too. Outside of illegal documentation and being aliens, they were doing nothing wrong- they were actually helping Americans afford cheap meat....

They are not terrorists, they are workers.

Eric

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
7/14/08 1:48 p.m.

Eric,

sarcasm.... hard to convey over the intertubez

Edit...

I also think that by treating them this way we lose on many levels.

  1. we lose hard workers, who are taking up the slack we left
  2. we pay for ICE workers, the lawyers, the courts, etc..
  3. we pay for the jail time
  4. we create a public relations nightmare

It goes on and on...

rebelgtp
rebelgtp HalfDork
7/14/08 2:13 p.m.

I honestly have no sympathy for anyone that gets busted for being in the country illegally. I love how they try to down play the fact that they are stealing others identities "just to work". Ok if that is the case let me have your identity I promise I'll only use it to get a job don't worry there will be no problems for you...honest .

Do I have problems with immigrants? Nope, so long as they are legal they are ok by me. I have made friends with many people that have come into this country legally for all over the world. I have worked with illegals and must say it was always a pain in the a** because for one thing they all figured they shouldn't have to learn English. I've seen this as a pattern where I live those that come into the country legally learn the language and those that don't could care less. They just want to come here get money to send back south. Heck I have helped new comers to the country English, I have a friend that lives in Romania that I'm helping with her English. She is hoping to come to the States after she is out of school.

As for oh they are needed no one here wants the jobs. In most cases that is BS, there are plenty of people here in the country legally that would do the same work. The reason there are so many illegals in those kinds of positions is because the companies will hire them for less than minimum wage, because who are they going to complain to right? They don't have to provide the benefits they would have to for someone here legally. If these companies would start actually paying what they should and follow the law, then more people here legally would be in those jobs.

Do I think we should be jailing them here? Nope I think we should be deporting them back to where they came from ASAP and keeping a log of continued offenders. If they continue to come into the country after being warned and deported then more serious consequences should applied.

WilD
WilD New Reader
7/14/08 2:15 p.m.
Pg.5 His case and that of a million others could simply be solved by a temporary work permit as part of our much overdue immigration reform. “The Good Lord knows I was just working and not doing anyone any harm.” This man, like many others, was in fact not guilty. “Knowingly” and “intent” are necessary elements of the charges, but most of the clients we interviewed did not even know what a Social Security number was or what purpose it served. This worker simply had the papers filled out for him at the plant, since he could not read or write Spanish, let alone English. But the lawyer still had to advise him that pleading guilty was in his best interest. He was unable to make a decision. “You all do and undo,” he said. “So you can do whatever you want with me.”...Before he signed with a scribble, he said: “God knows you are just doing your job to support your families, and that job is to keep me from supporting mine.”

This was the key point for me. While I am not very sympathetic to illegal immigrants who break the rules, this certainly does appear to be a case of victimizing the workers. The government's actions do appear to be heavy handed and possibly unjust. However, I think it is clear that this employer is a guilty party and needs to be punished. The managers of that firm should go to jail if the quoted statement is factual. These people are perpetrating a fraud and doing so in order to virtually enslave vulnerable people. That is what really disgusts me. We should be focusing on businesses that engage in these types of actions to address the "immigration problem". These companies don't want to hire Americans who know their rights and responsibilities and would demand fair treatment. These companies prey on the vulnerable in order to line their own pockets and everybody else loses.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
7/14/08 2:30 p.m.

Trying to stop this on the supply side is about as useful as stopping any other issue on the supply side. Stop it on the demand side. Put the employers in jail. Put the corporate officers in jail. Put the board of directors in jail. Do that to several companies and suddenly there will be no demand.

They are not doing jobs "Americans won't do." They are doing jobs Americans won't do at those wages. Hiring illegals means they can get by paying less, screwing the American worker. Would you work for half or a third of your current salary? If your employer could get away with finding someone to do your job for 1/3rd your salary, you'd be out of there tomorrow. If that someone just happens to be an illegal, they look the other way if they can get away with it. This issue effects the poorest of our country, keeping them from finding decent paying jobs, keeping them on welfare and keeping them voting D to keep the "free" money coming.

I'm real sorry there are no jobs where these people came from. If their governments were less corrupt, that wouldn't be a problem.

And, yes, their paying money one way into SS is the government's colusion in this arrangement. They also pay Medicare tax and a small amount of income tax, all of which is one way. It's win-win for the governments and the companies and lose-lose for the rest of us.

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/14/08 2:52 p.m.
ignorant wrote: Eric, sarcasm.... hard to convey over the intertubez Edit... I also think that by treating them this way we lose on many levels. 1. we lose hard workers, who are taking up the slack we left 2. we pay for ICE workers, the lawyers, the courts, etc.. 3. we pay for the jail time 4. we create a public relations nightmare It goes on and on...

Got it.

Hess, yes, my company does try to farm my job out. But, oddly enough, they are already paying minimum wage for my job for what customers are willing to pay for my skill. Thankfully, I'm getting paid that minimum wage for my job skill (vs. being out of a job, which IS a possibility in a few weeks).

Shocking, eh?

People demand stuff at a price, and in this case, it requires that the slaugterhouse pay next to nothing for a non-skilled position. I sure hope they are at least paying minimum wage...

That's exactly why we need guest worker programs to cover the true "dirty jobs" that need farmed out (and recognized to make sure that they are following labor laws).

Eric

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
7/14/08 3:06 p.m.

those who complain the loudest about illegals..

also shop the wallmarts

doitover
doitover New Reader
7/14/08 3:33 p.m.

For the second time in the past 9 years I agree with Dr. Hess. Not only are they often paid less, they work in conditions a legal wouldn't. They can't complain.

What's really disgusting is that these raids for the most part are just political. The people in real power know what the score is, they just do these little raids to hopefully fool their voters that they are doing something.

Dr. Hess wrote: Trying to stop this on the supply side is about as useful as stopping any other issue on the supply side. Stop it on the demand side. Put the employers in jail. Put the corporate officers in jail. Put the board of directors in jail. Do that to several companies and suddenly there will be no demand. They are not doing jobs "Americans won't do." They are doing jobs Americans won't do at those wages. Hiring illegals means they can get by paying less, screwing the American worker. Would you work for half or a third of your current salary? If your employer could get away with finding someone to do your job for 1/3rd your salary, you'd be out of there tomorrow. If that someone just happens to be an illegal, they look the other way if they can get away with it. This issue effects the poorest of our country, keeping them from finding decent paying jobs, keeping them on welfare and keeping them voting D to keep the "free" money coming. I'm real sorry there are no jobs where these people came from. If their governments were less corrupt, that wouldn't be a problem. And, yes, their paying money one way into SS is the government's colusion in this arrangement. They also pay Medicare tax and a small amount of income tax, all of which is one way. It's win-win for the governments and the companies and lose-lose for the rest of us.
Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/14/08 4:13 p.m.

Trivia: one of the guys on my LeMons team has a 22 year old son. Yesterday, when leaving the AX, he had his 18 month old daughter in a car seat in the back of his Nissan Sentra. He was sitting at a traffic light and got nailed from behind by a Chevy van driven by a drunk, uninsured, unlicensed and most likely illegal immigrant. As far as we know, the kid is OK. The car is totaled. The son doesn't make a lot of money, so he had liability insurance only. Now he's boned.

Send the bastards back at gunpoint, say I. Make the punishment for hiring illegals nasty enough to discourage it.

Get ready for grocery prices to go up as Americans start doing those low wage jobs. Better not complain, as you are helping put Americans to work.

About low wage jobs: if you hire legal Mexicans, they will work their asses off. But they do NOT come cheap. they charge the same prices as everyone else. Ask both my contractor brothers.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
7/14/08 4:32 p.m.

He was just running into people that Americans won't run into.

Mental
Mental SuperDork
7/14/08 5:02 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: Trivia: one of the guys on my LeMons team has a 22 year old son. Yesterday, when leaving the AX, he had his 18 month old daughter in a car seat in the back of his Nissan Sentra. He was sitting at a traffic light and got nailed from behind by a Chevy van driven by a drunk, uninsured, unlicensed and most likely illegal immigrant. As far as we know, the kid is OK. The car is totaled. The son doesn't make a lot of money, so he had liability insurance only. Now he's boned. Send the bastards back at gunpoint, say I. Make the punishment for hiring illegals nasty enough to discourage it. Get ready for grocery prices to go up as Americans start doing those low wage jobs. Better not complain, as you are helping put Americans to work. About low wage jobs: if you hire *legal* Mexicans, they will work their asses off. But they do NOT come cheap. they charge the same prices as everyone else. Ask both my contractor brothers.

No doubt, but if we had true immagration reform, crimminals like that could not hide in pockets of hard working illeagals. They would be exposed. Do not underestimate the strength of family in a Mexican realtion. If you beging to threaten peaple's family, they will handle it, but as it is right now, he can hide in a neighborhood full of illeagals because no one will complain or do anything.

Send them back at gunpiont? Won;t help. These folks know good an well there is a pretty good chance they will die crossing the boarder. They are still willing to risk that to come here, thats how bad some of their lives are.

Hess is right, stop the demand and put some suits in Federal pound you in the backside jail. Let them understand that they are basically commiting legal enslavery and pay the consequences.

Meanwhile, allow hard working immagrants in this country for a much more reasonable amount of money, or work out a payment plan.

neon4891
neon4891 HalfDork
7/14/08 6:14 p.m.

+1 for hess and going after the companies. If it wasn't so hard to legaly go after the suits...

RX Reven'
RX Reven' GRM+ Memberand New Reader
7/14/08 6:24 p.m.

In terms of illegal aliens only taking jobs Americans don’t want…I remember a non descript “man on the street” make a compelling argument to reporters a few years ago.

He said: I live in Idaho where we have very few illegal aliens and yet somehow the dishes get washed and the lawns get mowed.

What an eloquent line of reasoning…well played you man of genius.

The last report I saw indicated that only a small percent of produce costs went to direct labor so even if you raised salaries to minimum wage and provided the benefits required by law, it wouldn’t have that much effect. And of course, you’d get the money back anyway as you’d have a lot more tax revenue and you could lower premiums for things like automotive and health insurance because you wouldn’t have tons of people skipping out on their debts.

In my opinion, the most insidious problem we have with illegal workers the astronomical percent of their salaries they send out of the country…this is the mother of all trade deficits and hardly anyone every talks about it. We would improve our situation greatly if we put a stop to this. Sending food, cloths, etc directly instead of money would help but the big ticket item is rent so either the families would need to come to the US or we’d actually have to procure land (currently not allowed) to build housing on so that the money wouldn’t leave. At that point, it’d make more sense to just divide Mexico into 4-5 US territories and be done with it. Heck, we’ve got Puerto Rico to use as a model so I don’t think it’d be too difficult to time consuming.

Obviously, Mexican leadership would be really annoyed by this but if we immediately started deporting people like crazy and said, look people of Mexico, we want to help but you’ve got to take responsibility…topple your corrupt government and the US will be right there to set you up as an official US territory.

What do you guys think???

Mental
Mental SuperDork
7/14/08 8:08 p.m.
RX Reven' wrote: ... we want to help but you’ve got to take responsibility…topple your corrupt government and the US will be right there to set you up as an official US territory. What do you guys think???

Its worked so well the last two times.

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/15/08 6:53 a.m.
RX Reven' wrote: He said: I live in Idaho where we have very few illegal aliens and yet somehow the dishes get washed and the lawns get mowed. What an eloquent line of reasoning…well played you man of genius.

This guy never opened his eyes on the potato fields, then. Apparently, the Snake River is being renamed the Nile....

I lived there, too, and know with 100% certainty that ilegals were there, working their rears off.

I fully agree that conditions need to be legal, and punishments need to be laid onto the employers, but don't complain that your chicken prices have risen... And treating these hard working alines like terrorists is lame- they are adding to the American bottom line whether you hate them or not- they are not gutting the country. The money saved on labor does stay in the US- goes to the family farmer who can't afford to raise the chickens at the agri-busniness lowest rate, or at least goes to the processing plant home town to support local businesses there. Not 100% of the wages given to ilegals goes back to their home country.

Send them home. Fine. Lock them up? not with my taxes.

Eric

Wall-e
Wall-e GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/15/08 8:13 a.m.

I don't have a problem with the prices going up if the companies are playing by the rules. My problem is that in a year when they go back to illegal help they won't drop the price back down.

carguy123
carguy123 HalfDork
7/15/08 9:19 a.m.

They're illegal and they know it.

They got illegal papers so that they could work and they know it.

We know it, they know it. It's illegal.

I don't see the problem. If there's no downside to doing the crime, no matter whether it is being an illegal, robbing a bank, breaking and entering or whatever, then why not do the crime?

"Wait, let me call back home and tell the rest of my family not to come as it isn't as easy as everyone has been telling me." Works for me!

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
7/15/08 9:35 a.m.

Yeah. "I did no-ting wrong." Sure. And sneaking across the border in the back of an 18 wheeler or walking across the desert after paying 3K to a coyote and avoiding INS wasn't a hint that there might be some legality issues involved. We have laws against this. Enforce them. Oh, can't do that because they will work cheaper than American citizens or imigrants here legally and that's profit for someone. Don't build a fence that might keep them out, gosh, that would be racist. Instead, build a virtual fence so that we can tell exactly how many snuck across. That way we can plan production at the chicken plant better.

The whole "raise the cost of..." is also BS, as pointed out above. The actual cost of labor involved in producing grapes or whatever is minimal. Like the cost of wheat at the farmer level. It's the getting stepped on five times that the cost comes in. If the labor (or wheat) price doubled and was passed on without doubling at each stage, the impact would be minimal, and that money would tend to stay in our economy. Look at farm subsidies for ADM. They hold up a farmer with 40 acres and proclaim the end of his life if his crop isn't subsidized. Meanwhile we save three cents at the grocery store and pay 30 cents in taxes for the savings. Everyone wins except us people paying for it all.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/15/08 1:17 p.m.

Yeah, the illegals know EXACTLY what they are doing. Their actions to get them over the border prove that. I also have a problem with illegals getting a free pass, so to speak, by being 'fast tracked' for legality. What does that say to those who decided to do it legally and above board?

To clarify my position, again: I am not xenophobic. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants whatsoever. I have a real problem with those who sneak in illegally.

NoBrakesRacing
NoBrakesRacing New Reader
7/16/08 11:56 a.m.

Yes, the immigrant that crosses the border knows what he/she is doing. He knows he's living in such poverty it is hard to feed his family and he knows he needs to risk everything (everything!) to try and improve that. He also knows that there is a demand for his labor but only in the shadows, so that is his only option.

No immigrant wants to have to cross the border or work illegally but there is no real option for the needs of the country (US ) or the immigrant. The legal immigration system does not cover but a tiny percentage of the labor needs of the country, but I guess it is better to create a second rate society that has to stay hidden and scared than to change that.

And I do not know of any fast track or free passes for undocumented immigrants (don't like the other term as actions can be illegal but not people), other than specific humanitarian cases (sick son dying of cancer etc) Oh, and sport figures, movie actors... fast tracked although not undocumented. The McCain plan last year was not a fast track but a way for them to get in line at the back.

Be good

Javier

GlennS
GlennS HalfDork
7/16/08 12:29 p.m.
NoBrakesRacing wrote: He also knows that there is a demand for his labor but only in the shadows, so that is his only option.

And if we ever decide we are done with them or dont want them any more we can send them back. It allows us to have an underclass of workers that we can get ride of on a whim. Our immigration system is broken as intended.

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