GameboyRMH wrote: they are willing to commit murder-suicide but they don't want to initiate it.
Well put!
GameboyRMH wrote: they are willing to commit murder-suicide but they don't want to initiate it.
Well put!
NOHOME wrote: I have often wondered if the concept of a "Peacekeeper" weapon would work. Parachute in a weapon that would only detonate if peace could not be worked out.
An "interesting" idea...it's been explored in sci-fi before: Raven's bomb in Snow Crash is the closest match. Orbital nuclear launch systems like the one in the end of Code Geass and the ones that seem to show up in every other Heinlein novel are similar (and a closer match in terms of how they're used).
But if it were actually tried on NK? It would be hard to imagine the level of crazy that would result, even today. I think they'd be at least as likely to respond with some kind of suicide attack as to cooperate. If it "worked" it might be more like the end of WW1, just setting the stage for the next conflict. The Kim dynasty would go on an epic underhanded revenge campaign against the US, engaging in nightmare-scenario terrorist attacks. People would long for the "calm and rational" NK of old.
We actually were exploring a doomsday device weapon during the cold war. So was Russia. I think it's a bad call.
Nick (Bo) Comstock wrote:z31maniac wrote: Much ado about nothing as usual. They don't have any tested missiles that will get close to the coast, no proven miniaturization technology for the warheads. And even China and Russia have signed off on sanctions.But the report that just came out says they do. The last ICBM test proved they can reach out and touch the US and the latest report says they do have mini nukes that will fit in war heads. That's kinda what this thing is all about.
The last thing I read said there the part of the warhead on the ICBM can't successfully get back into the atmosphere without burning up.
Basically all their missile tests are failures when talking about something that can leave Asia.
Don't forget GW II said DPRK would have nuclear capabilities within months..........that was approaching 15 years ago.
More excuses to keep people in fear and grow our ridiculous defense budget.
This isn't about them actually attacking someone. It's about them sabre-rattling enough to get our fool-in-chief to make threatening statements so they can legitimize their weapons program. Goal achieved. NK now needs a weapons program to defend itself from fire and fury unlike the world has ever seen.
This is what happens when you lay off the whole berkeleying state department. There is nobody left who can play chess.
z31maniac wrote:Nick (Bo) Comstock wrote:The last thing I read said there the part of the warhead on the ICBM can't successfully get back into the atmosphere without burning up. Basically all their missile tests are failures when talking about something that can leave Asia. Don't forget GW II said DPRK would have nuclear capabilities within months..........that was approaching 15 years ago. More excuses to keep people in fear and grow our ridiculous defense budget.z31maniac wrote: Much ado about nothing as usual. They don't have any tested missiles that will get close to the coast, no proven miniaturization technology for the warheads. And even China and Russia have signed off on sanctions.But the report that just came out says they do. The last ICBM test proved they can reach out and touch the US and the latest report says they do have mini nukes that will fit in war heads. That's kinda what this thing is all about.
I'm just saying that report that came out yesterday, which was not a US report IIRC, is what got Big Orange's mouth moving.
I'm not disagreeing with your opinion.
I don't think Jong Un is crazy. But he has been brainwashed by his dad. and it's hard to imagine the level of brave that would be required by one of his inner circle to tell him he doesn't have the power he thinks he does. Tell him the truth and die now or lie, pump his tires and die much later...maybe.
And it may be unfair to pin any of this on Trump. He has really done and said very little to escalate the situation. Too busy escalating other situations. But no US President can sit by and do nothing when a fat little North Korean despot is flinging increasingly capable missiles around Asia and threatening the world.
bearmtnmartin wrote: And it may be unfair to pin any of this on Trump. He has really done and said very little to escalate the situation.
LOLWUT? Even if you give him a pass on yesterday's "fire and fury" bombshell, almost all of his statements on NK have leaned very much toward escalation - talking about sending over carrier groups, the size of the US nuclear arsenal, putting them "on notice," (Edit: Or was that only Iran?) etc.
Have a look at this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/asia/north-korea-donald-trump-timeline/index.html
We should be far more worried about NK attacking Japan. If they do, our treaty with Japan means we MUST respond and protect them. That was part of the agreement signed that disbanded the Japanese military after WW2. Japan is easily within reach of NK's missiles.
I have no faith in Trump, he's shown no aptitude for statemenship at all. I agree with Ian, in this case, you ignore NK. Responding with bluster just rachets up the tension for no good, only ill will come of it.
GameboyRMH wrote:bearmtnmartin wrote: And it may be unfair to pin any of this on Trump. He has really done and said very little to escalate the situation.LOLWUT? Even if you give him a pass on yesterday's "fire and fury" bombshell, almost all of his statements on NK have leaned very much toward escalation - talking about sending over carrier groups, the size of the US nuclear arsenal, putting them "on notice," (Edit: Or was that only Iran?) etc. Have a look at this: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/asia/north-korea-donald-trump-timeline/index.html
He's also the only US President in my lifetime to offer to talk to the guy
tuna55 wrote: He's also the only US President in my lifetime to offer to talk to the guy
True, that's certainly not escalation but I'm not sure whether it's a good or bad idea. I'm not sure that offer still stands either, it's been a long time (by today's standards) and a lot of escalatory statements on both sides since that offer was made.
GameboyRMH wrote:bearmtnmartin wrote: And it may be unfair to pin any of this on Trump. He has really done and said very little to escalate the situation.LOLWUT? Even if you give him a pass on yesterday's "fire and fury" bombshell, almost all of his statements on NK have leaned very much toward escalation - talking about sending over carrier groups, the size of the US nuclear arsenal, putting them "on notice," (Edit: Or was that only Iran?) etc. Have a look at this: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/asia/north-korea-donald-trump-timeline/index.html
I know the timeline and I have been following with interest. All The US (I am not singling out Trump) has done to this point is respond. North Korea is belligerent and threatening to an extent never seen and How can any nation just ignore that? I have some Japanese business partners and they are extremely worried. Don't forget that the North Korean response to some perceived US action or threat is to threaten it's neighbors.
bearmtnmartin wrote: I know the timeline and I have been following with interest. All The US (I am not singling out Trump) has done to this point is respond. North Korea is belligerent and threatening to an extent never seen and How can any nation just ignore that? I have some Japanese business partners and they are extremely worried. Don't forget that the North Korean response to some perceived US action or threat is to threaten it's neighbors.
The US & friends shouldn't do anything that comes close to responding in kind to NK's rhetoric (or actions) IMO. NK is all too happy to escalate at the slightest hint of escalation from the US, so the US has to dial it down instead. In the past that US has used quiet and subtle responses to the tune of "We don't approve of you having nukes, and we can defend ourselves, have a nice day" That's the kind of response that will work with NK. Not "we're sending a carrier group" or "what a coincidence, we're testing missile interceptors today!" or worst of all "FIRE AND FURY, MAKE YOUR TIME!1"
I think this is pretty much fake news/propaganda/distraction, whatever you want to call it. I am not worried about North Korea. Of course they want to have a credible nuclear threat since it is the only thing keeping them in control of their own country. Is the guy insane? I don't know, but I doubt he wants to be incinerated and it is much more likely he wants to develop enough of a nuclear arsenal to prevent an attempted invasion by anyone.That sounds like a sound defense strategy and not crazy to me.
We should be more worried about our government since we are the biggest threat to world peace. We (as a country) have been at war something over 90% of our existence. For some reason, folks in DC are desperate for more war and it doesn't seem to matter whether it is with Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea or whomever - they just want war. We are living in some sort of bizzaro times that is for sure
I wonder if ICBMs are obsolete yet.
oldtin wrote: I wonder if ICBMs are obsolete yet.
They have been since the advent of the boomer submarine fleet, nuclear capable standoff weapons like cruise missiles, and low radar profile nuclear capable aircraft. These types of weapons bring the response time down to something like 2 to 3 minutes rather than 15+. ICMB's are really just MAD weapons at this point.
I just read something a little while ago regarding the arguments for getting rid of the land based ICBM stock. The author was talking some cubic dollars being saved every year since the need to maintain and modernize would go away.
It's just posturing because he thinks it will get him a seat at the big boy table.
Manchild or not, he knows just launching ONE missile in our direction would end with the absolute destruction of NK.
oldtin wrote: I wonder if ICBMs are obsolete yet.
I have a hunch it won't be long.
And anybody that feeds an uncle to dogs, spreadeagles fellow party members in front of the barrel of a cannon and executes people via firing squad using an antiaircraft gun is definitely bat E36 M3 crazy.
I don't mean Trump. I mean that other guy.
In reply to The0retical:
Tactically, I get what you're saying. I was thinking more along the lines of missile defense rendering them useless. Always had the sense that a lot of our military actions were depleting old stock and the newest stuff you just don't hear what the real capabilities are.
In reply to oldtin:
Patriot has been pretty good for along time, at least as long as you reboot the system occasionally so the time is correct. Aegis is also fairly well proven at this point and the latest tests of THAAD have had excellent results. Coupled with some other technologies besides radar, such as one of the MDA Pred B's, the results for each of these systems are excellent.
So there's a couple layers there of missile defense. I don't know the capabilities of the Russian S-400 system right off hand.
ICBMs are basically a saturation weapon at this point. Which is horrifying when you think about it.
T.J. wrote: ...I am not worried about North Korea. Of course they want to have a credible nuclear threat since it is the only thing keeping them in control of their own country. Is the guy insane? I don't know, but I doubt he wants to be incinerated and it is much more likely he wants to develop enough of a nuclear arsenal to prevent an attempted invasion by anyone.That sounds like a sound defense strategy and not crazy to me....
Only thing keeping them in control of their own country? How is this even remotely true? They have had a strangle hold on that country LONG before the development of nukes, in fact, it's entire history. The primary "control" they have on the country is the manufactured threat of constant invasion only made possible by a complete control of information.
Prevent invasion? From WHO? Obviously, internally, that is the threat they present, but NO ONE wants anything to do with marching into that country.
First of all: Their military is optimized for that exact scenario and Soul ceases to exist in an insane hale of artillery shells (which cannot be shot down) with any invasion. That fact alone is well enough to keep most anyone from invading them. They have no real need for nukes (although I am sure it's been very useful for keeping even more food from its people).
Secondly: For what possible gain? Their great natural resources? Their tremendous industrial capabilities? Uh, no. The only thing you get if you take over NK is a HUGE number of brain washed under educated starving people that you will have to support. No one has any interest in that.
Realistically, the best thing that could happen to the people of NK is some sort of invasion / takeover by the US and have the US spend untold billions rebuilding the country. If the glorious leader truly cared for his people, he would set up a The Mouse That Roared scenario for that exact purpose.
spitfirebill wrote: spreadeagles fellow party members in front of the barrel of a cannon and executes people via firing squad using an antiaircraft gun
A little note on that, recently a North Korean defector said that this is indeed what happened, although he wasn't in NK at the time. Before that it had been just rumors combined with satellite photos.
Edit: Oh also a little note on the execution-by-dogpack, that didn't happen, just regular machine guns. I guess Kimmy J.U. wasn't feeling inspired that day:
In reply to aircooled:
We have repeatedly shown we do not need a possible gain to start a war or over throw a government we do not like. I get what you are saying and agree with you that there is no logic in invading NK. I was trying to put myself in their mindset. They see a world that is mostly hostile to them and wants to interfere/meddle/change how they run the country. Having a viable nuke threat is a sure way to get a seat at the big boy table. If Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Honduras, Ukraine etc. had nukes they would not have suffered our interventions over the past decade or so. Because we run around the world like a baby with a nail gun we essentially force countries like NK and Iran to want nuclear weapons as the only thing they can do to keep us away.
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