These threads are great. I like to see how quickly they devolve into "you're not a billionaire because you're lazy"
These threads are great. I like to see how quickly they devolve into "you're not a billionaire because you're lazy"
In reply to Error404 :
No one is saying it's because you're lazy. I'm saying don't hate the man because he figured it out, and put the time in. Why is everyone so concerned with what others have? He didn't take it from you.
Steve_Jones said:In reply to Error404 :
No one is saying it's because you're lazy. I'm saying don't hate the man because he figured it out, and put the time in. Why is everyone so concerned with what others have? He didn't take it from you.
Some people are strongly implying it. Read back to the empire state building stairs v elevator anecdote and tell me the implication isn't that successful people are just harder workers than the plebes.
That's not to argue about how hard they work/don't work or their top score on Angry Birds but people are saying that. Of course, there's also a lot of childish "yea well this is how you think" going on when these pop up.
yupididit said:Funny how y'all pick and choose who to hate and who to support because of what you know from media. Just know that you don't know anything about your heroes either. Though a lot of people choose to ignore other things.
Dude made himself uber rich. Get over it.
Either side is getting their opinions from the media, it's all a normal person can do. But when you choose to support the side of the uber rich based on what's in the media, remember who owns the media
In reply to Error404 :
Lol, I'm the one that made that post. You take it as I'm implying "you must be lazy" instead of the point of "don't get mad at the guy that put the work in"
One has nothing to do with the other. Some people work harder than me, some don't. That has 0 relevance to my work ethic.
'There's plenty of pie for everyone, me taking a slice, doesn't mean none for you.
Hey, Bezos did what Sears, Montgomery Ward, et al, could have down by converting their huge catalog business to the internet.
But they didn't and Bezos did. He figured out how to move the catalog business to the internet. So now he is worth billions. And I can get almost anything delivered to me just by ordering it off my cell phone.
Sears and Montgomery Ward are gone. Bezos is like the Henry Ford of out time - figured out an untapped market of unrealized demand and supplied what was needed.
I'm more concerned with people going to Congress with little and coming out multi-millionaires. That is where to look if you want rich people to trash.
Error404 said:Steve_Jones said:In reply to Error404 :
No one is saying it's because you're lazy. I'm saying don't hate the man because he figured it out, and put the time in. Why is everyone so concerned with what others have? He didn't take it from you.
Some people are strongly implying it. Read back to the empire state building stairs v elevator anecdote and tell me the implication isn't that successful people are just harder workers than the plebes.
That's not to argue about how hard they work/don't work or their top score on Angry Birds but people are saying that. Of course, there's also a lot of childish "yea well this is how you think" going on when these pop up.
Wow.
Since I wrote the Empire Syate Building comment, I'll just go ahead and say you sure went out of your way to misinterpret that one.
I didn't say a thing about successful people being harder workers. Never even thought it.
That comment had absolutely nothing to do with being successful. It had to do with the observation that so many people were willing to wait in line to ride the elevator.
That's all.
In reply to Error404 :
The problem, I think, is that some confuse quantity with quality. Some work is just worth more than other work. The guy who went out and stacked boxes in the warehouse for 12 hours may have worked harder than the guy who spent 10 hours playing golf and drinking Scotch with a large customer who's got a big deal on the table. But one of them is way more valuable to me. I can get any yahoo to come and stack boxes for me - that work is just worth less. So the analogy isn't that the person taking the steps is just willing to put in more work as measured in hours, but they're capable of doing work that the elevator crowd is either unable or unwilling to do. They were able to identify that there was a different way to reach a goal and then put in the personal sacrifice to achieve it. And maybe they started the whole thing out in a better place than the elevator crowd, too. If it's cold out, I'm probably going to be stuck on the elevator because about a third of the way I'm likely to have an asthma attack. Is that "fair"? Nope, but oh well.
I don't know a damn thing about the dude other than he's made a whole crapload of money by revolutionizing retail and IT. Generally speaking, the world is probably moved forward and we're all a little bit richer for it. He didn't take a dime from me that I didn't give of my own accord and so far I haven't heard that he's guilty or suspected of tax evasion or any other crime. Maybe he's a real sunuvabitch, maybe he helps old ladies across the street. Don't know, and it's none of my business. Frankly, I'm more jealous of his ability to have seen a way to build this empire that he has than of the size of his bank account. I would much rather spend my energy trying to elevate me towards his position than drag him down to mine.
I feel like people don't quite have the perspective of how much a billion dollars actually is relative to hard work. If you worked continuously 24/7 for a fabulous $208/hour; from the time Columbus sailed to America, to the time you are reading this post, you would still not be a billionaire.
Along with bad math, there is an enormous misunderstanding of wealth.
Bezo's salary has been minuscule. Smaller than mine. The salary is the part you pay taxes on.
He also earned "additional compensation" of $1.6 million per year. That's stock. Mostly. No taxes until it's cashed out- just like all the rest of our retirement accounts. Yep... that's a tax loophole. Most of us use it.
But $1.6 million per year times 10 years or so doesn't come close to his net worth. That's only 16 million- he's worth $203 billion.
The balance of his net worth is in GROWTH. Most of us have that too- it's in the value of our houses and retirement accounts. It's the difference between what we actually paid, and what it's now worth.
Salary. Additional compensation. Growth.
In the US, we don't tax wealth. We tax income.
So, if we are gonna cry "Bezos doesn't pay taxes", we have to realize that we are saying we should all be taxed on our WEALTH, not our income. Just think of what THAT would be like- annual tax assessments on our houses, property, retirement accounts, education funds, project cars... everything.
I don't think any of us actually want that.
So, let's just continue throwing eggs at the wealthy guy. It's more fun. (Eye roll)
SV reX said:annual tax assessments on our houses, property, retirement accounts, education funds, project cars... everything.
VA already has it on all motorized stuff. Every year, personal property tax is due.
red_stapler said:I feel like people don't quite have the perspective of how much a billion dollars actually is relative to hard work. If you worked continuously 24/7 for a fabulous $208/hour; from the time Columbus sailed to America, to the time you are reading this post, you would still not be a billionaire.
So what?
See my post above. The federal government literally spent $17.5B on Groundhog Day 2022 alone. But that's a topic for a different thread on a different forum, I guess.
Steve_Jones said:SV reX said:annual tax assessments on our houses, property, retirement accounts, education funds, project cars... everything.
VA already has it on all motorized stuff. Every year, personal property tax is due.
Right.
But that's not Federal. If we were gonna tax wealth, we'd ALSO have to pay a Federal tax on property.
SV reX said:In the US, we don't tax wealth yet. We tax income.
FTFY 
The point is that executive compensation has skyrocketed while middle class compensation has been stagnant for decades- increases in productivity haven't been shared fairly down the food chain. In terms of buying power, the middle class has lost a whole lot of ground over the years- and that breeds resentment and understandably so.
Do you know that the top federal income tax bracket in 1955 was something like 91%? (for people earning over $400k at the time.) Peoples heads would explode and they'd be screaming "socialism" at the top of their lungs if that happened today (of course adjusting when the top bracket kicks in for inflation- 400K in 1955 would be over 4 million today.)
Also, the tax laws are structured to favor people with investment income. Why is the long term capital gains rate lower than the rate on earned income? It's basically incentivizing investment over work and giving a helping hand to those who need it the least. I say this not from a position of resentment (I do have capital gains) but of ethics and basic fairness. Once you have a pile of money, it's easy to turn it into a much larger pile of money. Doesn't take hard work, doesn't take brains, it does take a bit of discipline. You can literally write a check to a brokerage, select your investment vehicle and watch the money pile up.
I have no problems with entrepreneurs who have a good idea, make it happen, pay their workforce fairly and don't engage in monopolistic practices. I'm sure that most of the folks on this board who have "made it" fall into that category. Not sure Bezos fits in that category on at least a couple of counts.
I think that the biggest issue here is the messed up tax structure in this country rather than Bezos per se- he's just a product of his environment.
In reply to flat4_5spd :
I thought the point was that people are throwing eggs at boats.
In reply to flat4_5spd :
The whole point of a capital gains rate is to incentivize long-term investment. To encourage anyone with the ability to invest to keep their money in the game. Otherwise, there is no money to lend and no money to invest in ideas beyond what is in your own pocket.
Toyman! said:In reply to flat4_5spd :
The whole point of a capital gains rate is to incentivize long-term investment. To encourage anyone with the ability to invest to keep their money in the game. Otherwise, there is no money to lend and no money to invest in ideas beyond what is in your own pocket.
I hear what you're saying here, but there would still be plenty of investment if long term capital gains were taxed at the same rate as earned income, and short term capital gains were taxed at a higher penalty rate to discourage market timing speculation and the market instability which would result from that. You've got money in excess of what you need to survive, you're going to invest it somewhere regardless of the tax rates.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to flat4_5spd :
I thought the point was that people are throwing eggs at boats.
The thread has drifted quite a bit since then, CATCH UP! :-)
If you really care that much, I'll go on record that egging yachts is wasteful and futile.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to flat4_5spd :
I thought the point was that people are throwing eggs at boats.
I'm not supporting those rich chicken farmers.
The 91% tax bracket thing is thrown out a lot. I would love to see actual data on that. How many people actually paid 91%? I am going to guess (rather confidently) it was zero. I mean, who would? I suspect they had some form of deduction back then, clearly you would do all you can (like now).
If you want to HIGHLY encourage using deductions (or hiding of income in some way), then that is a way to go, but you are back to the same (primary issue here) issue, and what is allowed and why.
"Generally" deductions seem to be (or are SUPPOSED to be) for "needs" (e.g.medical, food etc) or the general good (charity etc). Re-investment is considered "good" (because it build / makes more jobs etc) and effectively creates more capital (the name of the system).
As far as taxing wealth. Imagine what that would do to privately owned companies! (I happen to work for one that is much better, in my opinion, because of that). Exclude companies you say? Well.... there are going to be a lot of dubious "companies" sprouting up!
(I might throw eggs, I generally find those yachts pretty pretentious and gaudy, but I would much rather do it to a reality stars, than someone who build a company from zero)
Does Bezos get throw eggs back? Serious question. Minds want to know.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I am disappointed in the direction this went.
In reply to flat4_5spd :
The point is that executive compensation has skyrocketed while middle class compensation has been stagnant for decades- increases in productivity haven't been shared fairly down the food chain. In terms of buying power, the middle class has lost a whole lot of ground over the years- and that breeds resentment and understandably so.
Do you know that the top federal income tax bracket in 1955 was something like 91%? (for people earning over $400k at the time.) Peoples heads would explode and they'd be screaming "socialism" at the top of their lungs if that happened today (of course adjusting when the top bracket kicks in for inflation- 400K in 1955 would be over 4 million today.)
Also, the tax laws are structured to favor people with investment income. Why is the long term capital gains rate lower than the rate on earned income? It's basically incentivizing investment over work and giving a helping hand to those who need it the least. I say this not from a position of resentment (I do have capital gains) but of ethics and basic fairness. Once you have a pile of money, it's easy to turn it into a much larger pile of money. Doesn't take hard work, doesn't take brains, it does take a bit of discipline. You can literally write a check to a brokerage, select your investment vehicle and watch the money pile up.
I have no problems with entrepreneurs who have a good idea, make it happen, pay their workforce fairly and don't engage in monopolistic practices. I'm sure that most of the folks on this board who have "made it" fall into that category. Not sure Bezos fits in that category on at least a couple of counts.
I think that the biggest issue here is the messed up tax structure in this country rather than Bezos per se- he's just a product of his environment.
This is not accurate. The middle class standard of living has grown substantially since the 1950's. Sure, houses cost more proportional than that did in the 50's. They are also twice the size. The middle class today had luxuries never dreamed about in the 50's. Most of that is owed to the decades of progress, directly related to investment. Without investment, most of the things we enjoy today wouldn't exist. Find a need and fulfill it. You need an idea. You need the money to take that idea to fruition. That takes investment. For every one that succeeds, many fail. Why would anyone want to take that risk with their money if there is no reward?
There is also too much complexity to paint the middle class with a broad brush. Many people would consider those on one end of middle class poor and those on the other end wealthy. People also aren't born into a caste system, most transition from the poor end to the wealthy end over their lives. Results may vary. I for one am glad to have the opportunity, and would never trade that away for a higher floor.
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