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RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/18/23 8:07 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

What could any CEO seriously do to deserve $75m a year?

What could ANYONE do to deserve a million plus a week? Cancer researchers don't make that, transplant surgeons don't make that, but trust fund kids whose parents paid for them to go to the right schools and join the right elite clubs and groups, and paid to brush all their "youthful indiscretions", up to and including murder, under the rug seem to keep falling into these positions. 

What do they actually do? Because all the ones I've heard on earnings calls and seen in televised depositions have been dumber than boxes of rocks, like so dumb you have to wonder how they survived to the age they are.

They all seem to have great friend and family connections though, the way they all change seats on boards at various companies and keep falling up until they overdose on hookers and blow or get strapped into their golden parachute when it comes out how they've been berkeleying their entire employee line or customer base, or both. Then they pay a pittance of a fine, or hang out in 5 start luxury resort pay to stay prisons for a while, and either get similar positions back, or disappear with all their ill gotten gains that were never paid back in restitution.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
9/18/23 8:09 p.m.

Again, CEO screws up, he rides off into the sunset with 75 million in his pocket. 

I'd gladly work a day as a CEO for $205,000. 

Even if I gambled and tried working for a few weeks, I'd earn enough money to set my family up for life. Yea, I might serve a few months in jail for white collar crime, but is it worth it? Maybe. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/18/23 8:15 p.m.

IBTL 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/18/23 8:20 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

They're arguing for a 4 day work week, and might get it. 

100 years from now some nerd on the GRM Metaverse Forum(tm) is going to be saying "Everybody in America works 4 days a week because of the UAW strike of 2023 ya know!"

Personally, I hope they squeeze ownership till everybody turns the color of the Ford logo. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/18/23 8:20 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:

Guy making $75k screws up,  Jeep mirror does not work. Guy making $75M screws up, company goes under, everyone making $75k loses job. See how that works? If the CEO job is so easy, then get that job.

And what are the personal consequences for the CEO if the company goes under? Getting pushed towards the ropes financially like if the guy who made $75k lost his job, or an ultra-luxurious retirement and the start of a dynasty of wealth like the guy who makes $75k could never dream of no matter how awesome he was at his job?

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/18/23 8:22 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

They're arguing for a 4 day work week, and might get it. 

100 years from now some nerd on the GRM Metaverse Forum(tm) is going to be saying "Everybody in America works 4 days a week because of the UAW strike of 2023 ya know!"

Fun exercise:

Look up the infamous and somewhat misnamed productivity/pay gap chart, work out how many days a week we'd need to be working right now to make the same pay if there was no gap...

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/18/23 8:23 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That used to be my favoite chart! Couldn't find it just now though.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
9/18/23 8:28 p.m.

It's interesting that as inflation and interest rates crush them economy the wage gains from top to bottom get larger.  And then taxes go up to find all the various programs  and wars.  But damn the little guy for asking for a better deal.  Having a relatively wealthy and educated middle class is what made America a success.  Ripping it all apart via every little division is working so well.  
 

And as for attacking a musician that turned down an $8 million contract after his song became popular is an unrelated but interesting take on it all.  
 

The economy is floundering and it is totally fixable.  Fighting each other won't fix anything though.  Contrary to what some believe, I'm not trying to fight with any of you.  
 

We need the auto industry in this country.  

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
9/18/23 8:29 p.m.

The demanded pay raises sound bigger when you only look at the final number compounded after 4 years. What's more reasonable is to look at what it breaks down to as an annual pay increase.

If someone asked for a 15% pay increase over 4 years, that sounds a lot bigger than 3.5% per year. That's a cost-of-living raise. If wages have lagged behind inflation (especially the kind of inflation we've been seeing lately), it's going to take more than a couple 4.6% per year raises (20% over 4 years) to bring things back into line.

40% sounds a bit high to me, but that also sounds a lot like a first counter offer to 20% (4.6%/year) opening offer.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
9/18/23 8:52 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
Tom Suddard said:

This article is interesting:

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/soaring-ceo-pay-commands-spotlight-uaw-strike-big/story

If the workers can do the job of the CEO, they should get CEO pay. Putting a mirror on a Jeep pays $X, CEO pays $Y. If your only skills are screwing a mirror on, then that's the rate.

I use that example because there is a guy that screws the mirror on the Gladiator that is on FB complaining he is "forced to work 60 hours" a week.  He is currently "maxed at $26.55 an hour". 

$26.55 at 40 hours is $1062.

$39.82 at 20 hours (1.5x for OT) is $796.40

$1,858 per week, plus health insurance, plus retirement to screw on 3 screws in a climate controlled clean shop, seems pretty good to me.  He did not dispute the numbers, just said it should be more because of the record profits. When asked if they make no money next year will he take a cut? "of course not, why would I"

Just like the housing thread, looking at what others have and thinking you deserve part of it "just because" is foolish.

Can the CEO run the machinery of the workers? Or the equipment? If they in fact could, would they?

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/18/23 8:53 p.m.

The CEO pay thing is a red herring. I think they are overpaid, but there is only one CEO and a small handful of people that make the really big money. GM, for example, has 167k employees. Giving a large number of them a big raise is a much bigger deal to the company than giving Mary Barra an extra $5M. The optics of execs making big money matter, of course, but as a percentage of the company's revenue, they are pretty small potatoes.

As for the rest of it, I'll preface this by saying I'm generally pro-union. Workers are much stronger together, and it's the union's job to get as much as it possibly can. Also, I worked in this industry for 15 years on the salaried side (engineering, not management), so I've been in the plants, worked side-by-side with UAW folks. Given that, I think there is more nuance to this particular situation.

I see a lot of people talking about the big profits the car companies have made. That's true. But not always. Several times in the past few decades we've seen these companies on the brink of disaster. Two of them have already been through bankruptcy. Part of what led to that was decades of giving the UAW whatever they wanted in order to keep the lines running. The Detroit 3 ended up with a much higher wage structure than their overseas competitors, which hamstrung them in a lot of ways. There were other factors, of course, not listening to the market, building low-quality crap, etc. But high wages played a part. Big companies get a lot of crap for short-term thinking. Agreeing to generous contracts is short-term thinking. Trying to minimize costs in the future is not. I'll reiterate, I don't blame the UAW for this AT ALL. It's their job to ask for the moon. If the companies are willing to give it to them, good for them. Management signed those contracts.

Also, these companies DO have to compete with companies that use non-union labor. That's just a fact. It's not fair, and those workers should organize, but they haven't, at least not yet. So the management of the companies has to keep that in mind. It would be irresponsible of them not to.

Finally, I don't know about you, but a 20% raise over four years, plus cost-of-living adjustments, seems pretty damn good to me. And they are guaranteeing their already-excellent health care plans. I'm not sure how much more the union thinks they can get, but it's obviously something. More power to them, but to me it seems like they've already done a great job to get the current offer. Time will tell.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones UltraDork
9/18/23 9:01 p.m.
Appleseed said:
Steve_Jones said:
Tom Suddard said:

This article is interesting:

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/soaring-ceo-pay-commands-spotlight-uaw-strike-big/story

If the workers can do the job of the CEO, they should get CEO pay. Putting a mirror on a Jeep pays $X, CEO pays $Y. If your only skills are screwing a mirror on, then that's the rate.

I use that example because there is a guy that screws the mirror on the Gladiator that is on FB complaining he is "forced to work 60 hours" a week.  He is currently "maxed at $26.55 an hour". 

$26.55 at 40 hours is $1062.

$39.82 at 20 hours (1.5x for OT) is $796.40

$1,858 per week, plus health insurance, plus retirement to screw on 3 screws in a climate controlled clean shop, seems pretty good to me.  He did not dispute the numbers, just said it should be more because of the record profits. When asked if they make no money next year will he take a cut? "of course not, why would I"

Just like the housing thread, looking at what others have and thinking you deserve part of it "just because" is foolish.

Can the CEO run the machinery of the workers? Or the equipment? If they in fact could, would they?

If they can't, they can be taught in a day. Can you be taught their job in a day? Is $1800 a week plus benefits not enough to turn 3 screws? If that's all you can bring to the table, that's good pay. 
 

If you can turn these 3 screws and you are not currently making $90k a year, have insurance, and a 401k, I'd suggest a move to Ohio. 
 


 

You can buy this house for $155k. 
 


 

MyMiatas
MyMiatas HalfDork
9/18/23 9:05 p.m.

Looks like a good time to buy some stock in Tesla any electric car company??? Or no?

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
9/18/23 9:09 p.m.

I think they should make the CEO pay the center point of their strike, at Ford at least.   Make the CEO compensation based on some sort of profit formula, otherwise he gets an actual salary of zero, then divide his pay amongst the employees so they can live the high life like he does!....

....on an extra $121 dollars a year...

... who's in?

cheeky

Turbo_Rev
Turbo_Rev Reader
9/18/23 9:18 p.m.

A US automaker going under?

Lol. Lmao, even.

Remember what happened last time GM almost went under? 

​​​​​​That said, if you work in a place where 95% of the job is automated, you might want to start looking for the exits anyways. No auto manufacturer in the world is looking to automate less. 

 

​​

 

 

 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
9/18/23 9:22 p.m.

I don't remember how many CEOs ford went through while i worked there. Only one of those firings was from almost destroying the company. And he still got a massive golden parachute for that. How can you reward a person for letting the exact opposite of his stated goals happen?!??'  Kills me.  
 

As for the CEO vs line worker- ceos don't do real work, they let others do that and then use that to make decisions. Forgive me for seeing that as not all that hard, especially for what they get. And how many times have people posted that they could not be paid enough to work a UAW job?  Seen that post more than once. 
 

Sure, it seems like one job that only a special few can do, and another job anyone can do. But as I see them both, it's not what's being thought here. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/18/23 9:30 p.m.
Turbo_Rev said:

A US automaker going under?

Lol. Lmao, even.

Almost a million people work in the auto industry in the US. Forgive me if I find the prospect of large amounts of people losing their jobs to be less than hilarious.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
9/18/23 9:38 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
Turbo_Rev said:

A US automaker going under?

Lol. Lmao, even.

Almost a million people work in the auto industry in the US. Forgive me if I find the prospect of large amounts of people losing their jobs to be less than hilarious.

I believe you've missed the man's point. 

History has shown us that in the event a US car company is so poorly managed as to force it into bankruptcy, the government will offer up taxpayer dollars to keep the doors open.

Turbo_Rev
Turbo_Rev Reader
9/18/23 9:40 p.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

You clutch them pearls any harder, you're gonna break em. 

You equated "I think the likelihood of the US auto industry failing is absurdly unlikely" to "I think people losing their job is funny", somehow.

If need to be mad about something, I guess you're allowed to misconstrue whatever you want. 

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
9/18/23 9:42 p.m.

Welp, I can see I've contributed about all I can politely here. 

 

I'm gonna go back to looking for cheap Vipers to kill myself with. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/18/23 9:52 p.m.

I won't make any numbers up off the top of my head, but I know I've seen statistics showing that a staggering portion of the cost of a new 1985-1995 GM vehicle was paying off UAW pension demands from 1970-1980.

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones UltraDork
9/18/23 10:12 p.m.
aircooled said:

I think they should make the CEO pay the center point of their strike, at Ford at least.   Make the CEO compensation based on some sort of profit formula, otherwise he gets an actual salary of zero, then divide his pay amongst the employees so they can live the high life like he does!....

....on an extra $121 dollars a year...

... who's in?

cheeky

So $10 a month for everyone eats up $75M. Remind me again what $5 an hour for everyone would be then? If they're making $25 an hour now and want 20%, that's what it's going to be.  I figured they wanted a 4 day, 10 hour day schedule, nope they want to work 32 hours a week....

edit. I see they turned down the 20% raise. Wonder what that is in real dollars?

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/18/23 10:16 p.m.
Turbo_Rev said:

A US automaker going under?

Lol. Lmao, even.

Remember what happened last time GM almost went under? 

​​​​​​That said, if you work in a place where 95% of the job is automated, you might want to start looking for the exits anyways. No auto manufacturer in the world is looking to automate less. 

 

​​

 

 

 

Our dockworkers just struck for a similar raise, plus a roll back of plans to automate a lot of jobs. They won on both counts. Not sure what I think of that. A forklift driver is now making $60 an hour and attempts to modernize and cut overhead were pushed back. These pay packages are great for the individual but I do not think they benefit society as a whole. A secure blue collar job requiring a lot of repetition and little or no education should pay a comfortable wage, but not a wage that eclipses other sectors that require the employee to bring a lot more to the table.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/18/23 10:18 p.m.

And  management pay is a complete red herring that has no bearing on the low skilled workers income despite the unions attempts at conflation.

That is not to say I agree with executive pay. It's getting obscene.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
9/19/23 4:33 a.m.

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

Why is it the dock workers' fault that workers workers in other industries are too afraid to stand up and demand wages that finally catch and keep up?

The only way management compensation is a red herring with no on bearing on employee compensation, is if the latter has little to no effect on stock price. If that's the case, management loses their argument to the shareholders for preventing employee compensation from keeping up.

But if employee compensation does have a significant effect on stock price, then it's not a red herring and management compensation has everything to do with it. If that's the case, management loses their argument to the employees for preventing employee compensation from keeping up.

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