VW buyback

In reply to bastomatic:

I believe in penalizing them for cheating. All I am asking is to name me one of the millions of victims and show me the evidence that they were harmed. I personally will penalize VW by never even considering buying a new car from them. I am only saying that the penalty does mot seem to fit the crime when the fact is there are no actual victims of their crime other than the other automakers who followed the rules and either did not sell diesel-engined cars in the US or sold ones that did not perform as well as VWs. They are the only real victims that I see. The rest are imagined or potential victims.

I guess, I am a victim since I breathe, so I guess I should get my cut of the $15 billion? Maybe we should all just split the $2.7 billion slated for 'environmental cleanup'. If there are millions of victims why are the people who bought the fraudulent cars the ones getting the money? They are the polluters who inadvertently harmed us all and now they are getting rewarded for polluting?

bastomatic wrote: And as far as health goes, yes it's very hard to point to one person and one Volkswagen and show causation. I could quote studies nonstop about the effects of tailpipe emissions on things like Lung Cancer rates, asthma exacerbation and deaths, and on and on. I work in this field, and I see the effects firsthand. I don't think there are many people out there that would dispute that the Clean Air Act and ensuing EPA regulations have made the air better since the 1970s. The point is continual improvement over time in air quality. If we allowed VW to circumvent the rules governing pollutants, where would that stop?

With every other company getting away with it in every single industry like they already do now.

VWs biggest mistake in this whole thing was not bribing the right people and publicly embarrassing the epa. All the other companies in all the other industries are smart enough to pay them off and keep their neglect of the rules hush hush.

I mean realistically, one coal mine, transport company, and power plant does far more environmental and health related damage than these few cars do, but they buy their way out of it, through legal (carbon credits) and grey area (campaign contributions and bogus charities) and illegal (pushing laws to make them ok) means that VW skipped out on.

At risk of floundering or upsetting people, I'll step away from this thread now.

In reply to revrico:

Yes, you should step away. As far as I know, there isn't cheating to the degree that you seem to imply. In fact, there are some very draconian rules that govern both the EPA and NHTSA about bribes and whatnot (even spouses owning parts of an OEM). If you think our government is that corrupt, well, good luck with that. I'd suggest moving.

T.J. wrote: I believe in penalizing them for cheating. All I am asking is to name me one of the millions of victims and show me the evidence that they were harmed. I personally will penalize VW by never even considering buying a new car from them. I am only saying that the penalty does mot seem to fit the crime when the fact is there are no actual victims of their crime other than the other automakers who followed the rules and either did not sell diesel-engined cars in the US or sold ones that did not perform as well as VWs. They are the only real victims that I see. The rest are imagined or potential victims.

As usual, the coverup is worse than the crime. Yes, the Takata airbag thing has caused more actual harm to actual people, but the reason VW is getting slammed so hard over this is that they knowingly, actively circumvented regulations for years and years, and people in the highest levels of the company knew about it and endorsed it. That's different from selling cars with defective parts, regardless of the outcome.

In short, one is a mistake, the other is willful deception. Which do you think is worse?

In reply to T.J.:

Yes, you are a victim. The money that the EPA will collect themselves generally goes to improving the environment someplace else to offset the increase of emissions caused by something. Not sure where this specifically will go, but maybe some grants to help reduce the emissions of trains, or boats, or mines, or something like that.

If you think that you are not harmed by an increase of regulated emissions, well... All I can say is that I notice when I drive my old cars anymore. The CO induced headache is the first thing I notice.

T.J. wrote: In reply to bastomatic: I believe in penalizing them for cheating. All I am asking is to name me one of the millions of victims and show me the evidence that they were harmed. I personally will penalize VW by never even considering buying a new car from them. I am only saying that the penalty does mot seem to fit the crime when the fact is there are no actual victims of their crime other than the other automakers who followed the rules and either did not sell diesel-engined cars in the US or sold ones that did not perform as well as VWs. They are the only real victims that I see. The rest are imagined or potential victims. I guess, I am a victim since I breathe, so I guess I should get my cut of the $15 billion? Maybe we should all just split the $2.7 billion slated for 'environmental cleanup'. If there are millions of victims why are the people who bought the fraudulent cars the ones getting the money? They are the polluters who inadvertently harmed us all and now they are getting rewarded for polluting?

Rest assured, the class action lawsuits will follow, and some restitution will be made to the victims that participate and just happened to breathe during the last decade. Damage to victims may not be significant, like paralysis or missing limbs, but that doesn't mean it's not present. It may make breathing difficulties like asthma or COPD more severe. It may cause long term health issues. Just because the extent of the damage isn't currently known doesn't mean the damage doesn't exist.

Here's some numbers:

VW diesel total NOx emissions over the legal limit: 13,821 to 59,420 tons over 6 years Typical Coal plant emissions over the same time frame: 19,800 tons

So VW diesels accounted for an additional 0.75 - 3.2 coal power plants worth of NOx emissions in America. The proximity of a tailpipe to ground level probably makes the direct effects of NOx much worse than a typical coal plant, however.

Dodge/Jeep says "welcome to the world of the buyback program, my German friends!"

Just to put a quick funny in the middle of this so we can take a breath (no pun intended, but appropriate).

If I picked this up today, how much would VW compensate me for it? $7000? So, a free car? (No, I don't really think that.)

When the details are announced, I'll be interested to see if someone does a data analysis to figure out which cars can be bought to maximize the buyback program.

Now, back to your regular discussion.....

-Rob

In reply to rob_lewis:

What kind of maximization? Vehicles obtained to be destroyed or just pure dollars spent and those needing "the fix"?

The table I've seen that lists buyback money figures says it only applies to those who have purchased their diesels on or before 9/8/2015.

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to rob_lewis: What kind of maximization? Vehicles obtained to be destroyed or just pure dollars spent and those needing "the fix"?

I don't think they will be destroyed. Shipped to parts of the world that they are legal. Which is another reason VW can afford this program.

In reply to alfadriver:

They're being destroyed unless they figure out a way to acceptably modify them.

Settlement said: All Eligible Vehicles returned to Settling Defendants through the Recall Program shall be rendered inoperable by removing the vehicle’s Engine Control Unit (“ECU”) and may be, to the extent possible, recycled to the extent permitted by law. No Eligible Vehicle that is rendered inoperable may subsequently be rendered operable except as allowed by and in compliance with subparagraph 7.2.3 below and Appendix B of this Consent Decree

And then

Sale and Export of Returned Vehicles. Settling Defendants may elect to resell or sell any returned Eligible Vehicle or any 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicle in the United States, provided, however, that Settling Defendants first modify the particular vehicle in accordance with the applicable Approved Emissions Modification ... Defendants may not export or arrange for the export of 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicles, unless such vehicle has been modified in accordance with the applicable Approved Emissions Modification

In reply to bastomatic:

Interesting.

There's still a big question to what VW faces throughout the rest of the world. So this prevents more to be added to them.

T.J. wrote: Yes, I realize VW cheated intentionally, but even at 30x the limits are these cars not less polluting than most cars on the road?

Most cars on the road are less than ten years old. Given that, I would say they pollute significantly more, and NOx is a very nasty thing.

bastomatic wrote: In reply to T.J.: VW has actively defrauded investors, consumers, and the general public. They knowingly did it, even though the profits gained came at the cost of increased pollution and yes, health effects for millions. If you don't believe in penalizing a company for this, then there's really very little a company can do to be penalized.

Well, we could ban VWAG from ever selling in the US ever again until they have had 100% turnover of all management down to the janitorial staff, confiscate all US-based factories/assets and distribute to other automakers/suppliers with no reparation, and permit lawsuits from the dealerships and car owners who have suffered from these actions.

THAT would be a penalty.

That is not what is being done, because, like it or not, VWAG does assist the economy.

(for instance, they just created a market for a half million new cars...)