We can keep this non-political if we're careful...

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

I read what you wrote very seriously, and I learned something.  I know it had to be hard to share that, and I appreciate that. 

Thanks.

I am glad that this is a community where I feel like I can bring this up and discuss it.

I am saddened that there are so few places where I feel I can bring this up and discuss it.

I think that how difficult it is for concerned men who have experienced issues like I have to be able to discuss them, is itself a problem.

There are whiny, entitled men who spout grievances. There are men with real issues that deserve to be discussed. I would rather see the first group be given sympathy they don't deserve so that the second group can get the respect they need; than to have the second group dismissed because of the former.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I sincerely apologize.  I did not think about it being traumatic for you (and obviously it would be traumatic for anyone) and made a cheap joke trying to be funny.  It was not to make light of it, or poke fun at you, but that's not relevant.  Again, I apologize.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Thank you. I know that's where you're coming from, and I do appreciate that.

But... in a way... that actually makes things *harder* for me and other men (or women, or non-binary people) in similar situations.

If you were just an shiny happy person out to say something hurtful, it would be easy to dismiss. Your joke would reflect only on you. You would *know* what you were doing was wrong and were doing it anyway.

Instead, it means you and others thought it was *right* to joke about.

That makes me wonder if maybe my experience is trivial. I start questioning and second guessing myself. "Am I just being whiny?" "Am I one of those obnoxious, entitled people making a mountain from a mole hill?"

I'm not saying this to jump on you, scold you, tell you you're a bad person, or anything like that. I'm saying this for the sake of everyone to consider how we react to things about men (or anyone) discussing personal and traumatic experiences.

I'll add this to the discussion:  I went about 56 years without the extra skin and never had a problem. Then suddenly, it became a regular occurrence.

If you want to know what it feels like, imagine a paper cut on your very important component. Not fun.

   I wholeheartedly agree that mental health diagnosis and treatment, particularly that of men/boys, has been stigmatized to the point that it is absolutely under-utilized and almost completely ineffective. 

   Had I grown up differently or had some sort of guidance other than, "We can't afford doctors...college is for rich kids..." during my childhood my life would have been several orders of magnitude less E36 M3ty and, in turn, the lives of my children would be quite a bit better. Oh well, I do the best with what I have.

   I usually laugh when I see these "desirable traits" lists for men;
 

   must be at least 6' tall
 

   must have at least a six-figure income

   must have visible abs  




   My stats:


   5'7"


   I slowly clawed my way up from abject poverty (the first 20 years or so) to the bottom echelon of middle class (for three years) then fell back to poverty (for almost three years), then slowly crawled up to poor again, then barely climbed past the line that separates poor from middle class. By then I had met my wife and, aside from slipping back down past the poor filter a couple of times, it's mostly been an upward trend.


   I usually weigh somewhere close to 200lbs. In the past, it's been as high as 230 which is a lot at my "manlet confirmed" height.




   Based on my first-hand experience and a single data point for reference, I agree that the kind of women you meet at bars/clubs want tall, affluent guys with abs. Honestly, who wouldn't date Jason Momoa? Unlike others who are/were involuntarily celibate, I (in my teens and 20's) didn't reserve my hatred just for women; I hated and wanted to destroy EVERYONE. Myself included. This was where a childhood mental health diagnosis and/or treatment would have helped. 


   I surrounded myself with E36 M3ty people and only luck kept me out of prison. That line about men leading lives of quiet desperation hits hard.

In reply to The_Jed :

Almost the same experience. But I surrounded myself with good people who (without their knowledge or intention) kept me from doing the unthinkable. My life has been saved at least 4 times without them even knowing it.

Jason Momoa??

I'd marry him. 

I would rather a society where we show respect and compassion to people who might not deserve, over one where we withhold compassion and respect from people who do.

SV reX said:

Jason Momoa??

I'd marry him. 

It's the beard. 100% he can never shave

Beer Baron said:

Talking about men's issues, I'm strongly opposed to the widespread practice of child circumcision.

Thanks for sharing Beer. I remember getting questioned a lot in high school locker rooms because I was the only one that wasn't uncircumcised, and now I have 2 good friends seeking plastic surgery to repair similar trauma from bad cutting. Even my nursing manuals just have the infant's genitals tightly bound in the diaper with the rest of stool, and discussions from old doctors imply that most are against even questioning the practice!

I also have a personal story- i'm a hooded hero, and at the hospital we once got into a convo about circumsizing (because lmao healthcare) and I had old women telling me I should've been cut. I had old women telling me how my own summer sausage works. I've never had to explain to someone's grandma that it's not hard to wash your knob, but apparently some think that's what I'm using one of my degrees for.

Since everyone (I think) in this thread are men, we tend to look at things in a male-centric way. It's important to remember that women have a very similar list of issues and concerns. A short, plump woman generally doesn't have millionaires lining up to date her. And if she does have money, there are a lot of male gold-diggers out there also. And if she's hot... well you know where that goes.

Men do have unique and valid grievances. Courts still favor the woman in custody situations. Some women have double standards eg "treat me as an equal until its time to pick up the check", et cetera. But as I advise my 23YO son- be the best person that you can and date people for their personality and values above all, and things tend to work out.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Beer Baron said:

Talking about men's issues, I'm strongly opposed to the widespread practice of child circumcision.

 I've never had to explain to someone's grandma that it's not hard to wash your knob, but apparently some think that's what I'm using one of my degrees for.

I'm confident my Grandmother would have been shocked at how often, and vigorously I've washed my knob...

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

100% why I married Applewife. She is not a supermodel.  I am not Clark Gable. We saw beyond looks and material things, and liked what we saw.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Wait a minute...someone was sharing beer?  I missed it!

It's pretty normal that people pair up that have a similar SMV (sexual market value). Just pay attention next time you're in a public place like a mall and see how many you'd rate within a few points on the old 1-10 scale. 

For even more fun, try to guess which one is the leader in the relationship.  Body language usually gives it away. 

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

My brother and i, like my dad, his dad, etc, were cut because thats just what was done. My brother and I also decided that was BS and we did not have our sons chopped. If they want to have it done, it will be their choice. 
 

For the ladies, since i know you are reading(Hi Margie!), Just imagine after your daughters were born, society said "you should have your daughters clitoral hood cut off" just cause. Or worse, be told its UGLY.  They will masturbate too much if you leave it!
 

Now go eat some graham crackers and kellogs corn flakes, they will reduce the urge for masturbating!

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

we seem to be moving towards a society where the 5 percent of men who are of dating age, unmarried, have a 6 figure + job, are above-average height, and are decently in shape are the only ones that the tic-toc generation of women are interested in.

 

Woah there big fella! Upon what do you make that determination? Are there statistics, studies that prove it? Because you've basically called an entire generation of women shallow. And here's a thought - when Suzie smooth-hips tells you that you're inadequate, it may be a bummer, but you've also dodged a bullet.  Let's say you are a twenty-something with a tasty six-figure income and you get married to ol' Suzie. Then, five-or-ten years in you decide that you are sick of writing code and want to be a kayak guide. Who's more likely to support you in the pursuit of your dream? Suzie the Prada queen or Nancy, the  gal who loves you for your personality?  

I'm guessing you haven't tried dating recently, he's not far off.  Aside from the E36 M3show I went through prior to meeting someone I'm also in a few groups that are primarily women complaining they can't meet anyone and the stories are impressive.  It doesn't help that on most apps men greatly outnumber woman, so you're pretty much reduced to a handful of pics and a paragraph to stand out from the 20 other messages she got that morning.  

I'm short and fat, I understood going in they would be hurdles, my only hope was humor. I had a couple pics so they knew going in I was a mess, and a funny bio. I never would have guessed what else was an issue, in fact the weight hardly ever came up. Height on the other hand. "I never realized how short 5'4" was" as they got back in their car and drove off.  Sure you make good money, but your schedule isn't 9-5, you have no degree, and one I never expected, many women aren't interested in a middle age man that doesn't have a ex and children.  I was told if no one would let you knock them up something is probably wrong with you.  It's no picnic for the women either, as I get some horror stories from friends in some of my groups.  The absolute garbage men they run into that grew up on a steady diet of Joe Rogan type manliness leads to some terrible relationships.  I thought the phrase toxic masculinity was nonsense until I started meeting some of these asshats, but it's alive and well in a lot of places.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy answer to this.  At some point we became a society that is extremely uncomfortable meeting face to face, preferring instead to go online, and be able to somewhat vet someone instead of just letting them talk to you in public.           

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Without the beard he's Meatloaf. 

Someone once opined that dating over 40 is like searching through the garbage trying to find something edible. 

I've never heard that "no kids or exes" is a detriment to women. Bizarre. Wise men avoid women with kids/exes because it always comes with bags of drama. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

The elder Mr. VCH (my dad) is 5'6" and has always been more on the *ehem* "stocky" side.  He met my mom who- and don't take this the wrong way- was quite a stunner back in the day.  Hell, even as a 70 year old now, she's in pretty good shape.  They've been married for 45+ years.  As far as I can tell, what my mom found (and still finds) attractive in him is this:  

Confidence.

For a pudgy, short guy to walk up to a blonde knockout and ask her out, without any sense of self deprecation, or worry about rejection- just as an equal- that had to have impressed her.  Of course there was no social media or anything like that 45 years ago, and mom wasn't swiping left or right or whatever the hell it is kids do these days.  IIRC they were both in some sort of a downhill skiing club or trip or something, and met there.  

My younger brother is 43, and single, and shares with me the horror stories of the women he's met online.  I mean, some real pieces of E36 M3.  No, really- REAL pieces of E36 M3.  I don't think you understand how much actual E36 M3 is out there.  The only real advise I can give is what worked for my dad, and for me- you have to put yourself out there, physically, socially, in as many places as possible, to get your odds up enough to meet someone.  It could be at a gym, it could be at church, it could be at work, it could be in the produce isle of the Price Chopper.  You just don't know.  The one thing I do know- she's NOT at your house.  

I'm so glad I learned to dance. That's actually how I met my wife.

Women love a guy who knows how to dance well.

But I put a *lot* of work into developing that into being as skilled as I am. Like... I've been asked if I'd teach international workshops and to move to major cities to teach dancing.

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

The absolute garbage men they run into that grew up on a steady diet of Joe Rogan type manliness leads to some terrible relationships.  I thought the phrase toxic masculinity was nonsense until I started meeting some of these asshats, but it's alive and well in a lot of places. 

Joe Rogan masculinity is actually on the less-toxic side of the spectrum, especially keeping in mind what this thread was about...just don't get me started about the other aspects of his show...

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

I somehow haven't had a issue with confidence, but was surprised by the height thing because it generally came from women even shorter than me. I had a woman that was under 5' meet me in a parking lot in front of the restaurant we were going to have dinner at, stare at me for a minute, said I looked taller in my pictures and shouldn't have wasted her time, and walked away.  It was hysterical.  She texted me about a week later to see if I was still free for some reason  and I made some joke about how it wouldn't have worked out because neither of us could get anything high up in a grocery store and she got offended that I made fun of her.
 

I ended up meeting someone great but not without a lot of disasters along the way. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

Sounds like the over-40 dating pool is full of about as many E36 M3ty women as E36 M3ty men. They're just more circumspect about it.

Its pretty E36 M3ty.  I'm 39 and have been dating since about 35.  I'm 6ft, have a 6 pack, and make 6 figures, which the internet would have you believe is what women are after.  But I don't think that is the case.  In the world of Tinder/Bumble/Hinge, women are so massively outnumbered by men that they can effectively keep browsing forever.

Physical attraction is important to me, and I don't judge to opposite sex for valuing it as well.  I know girls that struggle with the height thing.  My ex has had a few disappointing dates where the guy who showed up was 4" shorter than her.  We joke about it and its a very similar situation to the weight thing for guys.  Its very hard to ask someone who you've only chatted with "are you fat/short", when they often take creative pictures to hide it.

I don't refer to someone who values physical attraction as "shallow".  Shallow implies being only concerned with surface features.  Most people are looking for someone who is a good person, funny, great personality, smart, and attractive.