What about the dog?

Toyman01 wrote: I had a dog that would growl on ocasion. He doesn't think you are the boss. Next time he growls, force him to the floor, roll him on his back and hold his throat and tell him NO until he stops growling.

Oh man, I've tried that on a family members dog before. It didn't like that. It draws blood on me occasionally. It's literally ripped up my clothes. The worst was when it came up behind and bit me on the elbow. It hurt like a bitch, but I didn't realize how bad until I felt blood soaking through my sweatshirt a few minutes later. I couldn't put weight on that for almost a whole work week. It's a nice dog, unless you look at its stuff or go near it while it's got a bone (a chewy one, not a people bone) And a lot of the time it's just playing too rough. It's the only dog I've ever had a problem with. But I don't live there. There's only so many books I can buy them, classes I can enroll them in, things I can explain about being the boss over the dog.

People treat their animals like princes and princesses then wonder why the dog won't listen to them. If anyone's dog ever bit me and drew blood I'd either kill the thing myself or report it to animal control as a vicious animal, family or not. I have absolutely no issue with dispensing of a POS animal.

I have a permanent scare on my hand to remind me of why I won't take anything from an animal. Last time I checked I'm the meanest thing on the block and I'll be damned if a dog is gonna change that.

About 95% of people with animals aren't willing or able to train them correctly, they rule the house will go into the kitchen, get on the furniture, etc, if I ever have another dog it had damn well better listen to me. I saw a women in petfart trying to train a big dog with treats, well that don't work half as good as a firm hand. My mom tries to train her 5 POS dogs with treats and all you end up with is a bunch of fat ass dogs that don't listen.

What a great thread full of absolutely poor advice.

Some of you get it...but a lot of you scare me. I would not go for the "alpha roll" right out of the chute. That may be asking for a bite. Alpha rolls need to be applied quickly, firmly, harmlessly and only for punishment deserving of it. Noobs at dog training probably shouldn't try it.

What you've got sounds like a classic case of the dog thinking it's in charge, regardless of age. Age may exacerbate it, but it still doesn't excuse it. Sometimes dogs with arthritis, poor vision or other ailments may get cranky like this...have a vet render an opinion if any medical condition might be contributing. I'm sure when you're feeling poorly you're not charming either.

On the last page you also noted you don't trust the dog after a bite some time ago...another problem. If you have fear it will bite you, they will read that, and gauge you as weaker than they, so again, they are taking the role of alpha. Sounds like your gal is probably not in charge either.

Both of you need to take control back. If you get the Nat Geo channel, start watching Dog Whisperer. It works. I use it. I'd recommend a simple start by having a leash on the dog. When he's on the couch and you want to sit there, ask him to get off. Refusal=a pop of the leash. Repeat, calmly, firmly, patiently. He can growl all he wants to, but eventually he'll get tired of being tugged on and get off. You're claiming the space. Claim space everywhere in the house. He's in your way? Ask him to move, and push him lightly with your feet until he moves. Most importantly, never let him see you sweat. Calm action, little talk, never any shouting. Dogs respect the strong, silent types the most.

These methods are difficult to explain in text. If you don't have NatGeo you can search YouTube for "Dog Whisperer" and "Cesar Millan" and watch a few segments. It should help cement the idea. Never, ever use physical strength/violence...there is a huge difference between the 'touch' he uses and poking/hitting the dog. Took me some time to master it.

Dogs that growl/bite are not inherently evil. I no longer fear them now that I have a better understanding of how to deal with them. 90% of the time they are a problem because the owners have not established or have relinquished authority.

Weve got four dogs, and a cat... the cat is the alpha dog, and smacks the dogs around if they get out of hand, or just if she feels like slapping someone around..

As for the people element, the dogs do occasionally get the mistaken idea that their in charge. The situation is easily remedied, usually with no more than "the look" and a finger pointed down. three of four of them will immediately roll over on their backs when i do this and they know im pissed off. At all other times the down finger means "SIT" and they comply. It works with the fourth one about half the time, when it doesnt, a light tap onthe nose usually corrects him. as soon as i look away he runs and hides under the bed, hes the smallest of all of them with the biggest attitude. Its just repetition and immediately correcting bad behavior with a firm voice, and a visual cue, only rarely does it take more than that for my pack at least, and NEVER more than a tap. the only problem i have is when i find evidence of the bad behavior way after the the fact.

Yeah I won't be trying that alpha roll any time soon. Teaching a dog that isn't mine manners isn't worth getting bit in the face (as much fun as that sounds). I've had a lot of dogs, and I've never once had to go the physical domination road. Firm voice commands and lots of love has made all of my dogs super obedient and friendly.

I have had dogs all my life, and only one has given me any problems, still have him. He is the only dog I ever tried the submission roll on, but it didn't work either, his problem isn't that he thinks he is the Alfa, but that he wants to be, he submits, but grumpily and grudgingly, it is a situation I can tolerate so long as "he only wants to be"

The funny part is, if I get up to refill coffee or whatever, he immediately jumps into my seat, and when I return I order him off, even if it is 5 seconds he will do this.

Then again on other days he will sit at my feet and look up until I say its ok ten he jumps up on me for a pet.

We do not trust him around kids at all though, he has a history of snapping at them, but there is a story behind that too.

Dogs like to know you're in charge, so they don't start wonderin' if they need to make the decisions. It's important to have routines and rules, or R&R as I call it. They like consistancy in their daily lives, whether it be diet, exercise or bedtime. They like to perform, once they know what you expect. I like to give visual commands alone (once they know the ropes) to instill the habit of eye contact and focus on me, the treat provider/pack leader. This never ceases to impress any visitors that make it over here, and they always say, "Man, you must practice with them every day!", which is exactly right. We don't have a 'practice session' every day, 'every day' is just a practice session. Consistancy is definately the key with learning commands like sit, stay, come, down. Be sure not to use other random words in place of the command word. Chuck has a habit of saying "OK" when he should say "let's go" or "in your crate".

Most importantly, let your dog know the things they are doing right with praise and the things they are doing wrong with body language and tone. If you feel your dog does not focus on you enough to learn a command you can use a trick I found handy. Go through the routine of preparing their breakfast kibble, but instead of putting it in their bowl put it in a ziploc bag and place it in your pocket. Give them the empty bowl and praise. Then, throughout the morning give them tasks, simple ones like come are great. When the dog does what you want, they get a kibble. This places their attention on you and when they are paying attention to you they are more likely to obey your wishes (since they will have a chance of hearing them if they are paying attention). The other important thing to not overlook is exercise. Most dogs don't get enough and it makes them restless and edgy, behavoir that leads to barking, chewing and acting out for attention. Understand when the dog's actions are a result of their natural instincts not being met before doling out a 'punishment'. And, most of all, appreciate every day you have with them.

ddavidv wrote: What a great thread full of absolutely poor advice.

About the only thing that I can agree with in this thread..........

I've been involved with several mixed and purebreed rescues for almost 10 years now. First thing is this whole concept of alphas in a pack has been disproven............been that way for a while. See here. The alpha concept is a 75 year old myth born out of bad science. In actuality, dog or wolf packs actually behave more as a family -- there is no such thing as an alpha in a pack.

And an alpha roll is a last resort maneuver -- one that should be done after consulting with a trainer. I have someone I know locally that was repeatedly putting a dog on its back because the dog was being aggressive and growling when their kid was playing with the dog. Turns out that, after taking the dog to the vet, the dog had bad hips and was in need of surgery -- was being all aggressive during play because the kid was playing too rough and hurting the dog.

Seriously -- if you're having behavior problems with the dog, take the dog to the vet...........y'all are taking your dogs to the vet annually and have the dogs on heartworm preventative, right? Anyway, ask the vet to look the dog over and while you're in there, ask for advice on behavior problems. They can help and possibly recommend a local behaviorist/trainer if needed.

And plus eleventy-ka-billion to ECM above -- was going to write something similar. A lot of bad dog behavior is due to when the skins (you and me) aren't doing their job of letting the dog know what is expected of them and the dog starts making decisions that they think are the right thing to do. All negative reinforcement does is make for a scared dog who isn't sure what is expected of him. Positive reinforcement (which doesn't make for an overweight dog!) -- positively lets the dog know that what he is doing is what you want him to do.

With 4 to 5 dogs in the house at any time (4 of ours which range from 40 to 80 pounds plus a foster dog) we have very little tolerance for bad behavior. We are either very very lucky or our system of doing things just plain works. Dogs don't counter surf here, they know that the box of stuff (toys, balls, etc) in the living room is theirs to play with, chew on, and even destroy..............but my slippers, the guitar in my office, window sills, etc., are NOT their playtoys.

And for the guy that started the thread -- take your dog to the vet for a checkup. It is unusual for a dog to change behavior like that. If nothing else in your home or routine has changed and the dog has changed like that, you need to have your vet take a peek at him.

-jeff "have all my digits and windowsills intact!" d

Dogs aren't bad, they're just ill-trained or not properly trained by people. The pain in the ass about it is that I've trained my dog and my childhood dog just fine. But the only ones who are going to drain their dog is them, because they live with it. They think it's funny when it's tearing at peoples' pant legs or growling at them because they looked at its bone. Other people don't. I persuaded them to hire a trainer for a couple weeks and they followed what the trainer said. It worked. Then when the sessions stopped, they let it slide. It went right back to how it was. The funny thing is, I think the dog trained them. Now when it sits or puts its paw up to "shake," they rush off to go get him a treat. The dog just demanded a treat from you. It should be that you direct the dog to sit, or "shake," then you give it a reward for doing what it says. Not vice versa. When it takes things or rips peoples' shoes off, they will tell the dog to drop it 40 times. And it doesn't. People seem to think that you can just swing by somebody's house, do a couple minutes of quick techniques and vanish, and the dog will be all better.

And alpha-roll be damned, if the dog is biting the suture line on my one-week-old-surgery hole, then I'm holding it down. Not that getting bitten in the face was any better. But getting bitten on that arm was a hell of a lot more painful than what came from holding him down. I can talk technique and how to train them all I want, but if they're not going to implement it, I'm still going to get jumped on and bitten when I walk through the door. You can't train somebody else's dog by showing up every other week.

orphancars wrote: I've been involved with several mixed and purebreed rescues for almost 10 years now. First thing is this whole concept of alphas in a pack has been disproven............been that way for a while. See here. The alpha concept is a 75 year old myth born out of bad science. In actuality, dog or wolf packs actually behave more as a family -- there is no such thing as an alpha in a pack.

I was all ready to disagree with you, and then I read your link. And it's absolutely right. I think the "alpha" term is thrown around with little regard to it's meaning, and I may be guilty of that as well. We really should be using "pack leader". That is how we run things in our house. Respect has been earned by leadership, not by force. All it usually takes to stop shenanigans here is a snap of the fingers or a loud "AH!". We set Rules, Boundaries & Limitations. The dogs know what is expected and what is allowed.

Positive reinforcement training is a useful tool, but personally I think it is relied on too frequently and used as the ONLY tool in training. People wind up being treat dispensers and not leaders. I find the contrast of watching Victoria Stilwell and Cesar Millan interesting...they both can get to the same place, but it often takes Victoria longer. Neither method is wrong, and I think different techniques are required for different dog personalities. I use a mixture of both, but lean towards Cesar's methods.

ddavidv wrote:

orphancars wrote: Stuff about alpha dogs being a myth...

I think the "alpha" term is thrown around with little regard to it's meaning,

You couldn't be more correct! I meet a bunch of folks who are new to rescue and the only education they've received about how dogs operate is via the TV. This is one of those areas.

ddavidv wrote: We really should be using "pack leader". That is how we run things in our house. Respect has been earned by leadership, not by force. All it usually takes to stop shenanigans here is a snap of the fingers or a loud "AH!". We set Rules, Boundaries & Limitations. The dogs know what is expected and what is allowed.

When you put it that way, I'd say it sounds like you're doing it right . We say it all the time around here, "I'm the one with the thumbs and the paycheck, I get to set the rules."

ddavidv wrote: Positive reinforcement training is a useful tool, but personally I think it is relied on too frequently and used as the ONLY tool in training. People wind up being treat dispensers and not leaders.

At some point ya gotta wean off the treats! Start out with treats, then occasionally instead of a treat give a "good boy!" and some head scratches. Start doing that more and giving less treats. The dog wants your love and respect -- he doesn't need the treats, he just wants you to like him.

In the case of working dogs (police, search and rescue, cadaver, border, etc), the dogs they look for aren't ones that are food motivated, they are motivated by a toy. Sometimes you just have to look for the thing that motivates the dog. Food is an easy motivator, but sometimes you have to look to see what also motivates the dog.

And if you see the dog getting a little fat because of too many treats, back off his food! Remember -- you have the thumbs. Substitute in a little pumpkin in place of their food -- it's mainly fiber/low calorie.

ddavidv wrote: I find the contrast of watching Victoria Stilwell and Cesar Millan interesting..

Cesar Milan = American Hot Rod ......about all I will say there.

Well just to top this story off, the dog just bit me. He was chewing on some paper towels, I used the stern voice, said drop it, he didn't, I went to grab it, and he bit me. Now he's acting like nothing is wrong. This dog has serious issues. I expressed how I don't trust this dog and I don't trust it being alone with my wife. Her dad needs to get rid of it.

I'm thankful it was worse. It took a lot of control to not go whump the E36 M3 out of this dog.

Big stick time, doode. "Attitude Adjustment." Dog Wisperer ain't gonna cut it right now. Best to do it when momma ain't around.

You mean the dog is acting like nothing is wrong, even though you are posting this in the car while on the way to the vet to put this dog down?

Joey

Is that dog up to date on all of his shots?

I wish Joey. The dog is not mine. It belongs to the wife's family. We just bought her parents house, and her dad is still her while I'm deployed, and the dog is leaving when he does. And just a little bit ago he tried to bite my wife while we where doing dishes. I'm going to talk to her dad about it tonight. I don't want this dog around my wife any more.

Please check the dog out for illness and then instill some serious discipline/training. Don't tolerate a dog that bites, but he has been getting away with a bad attitude for a long time, and you guys have been putting up with it. Dogs bite each other with the force he bit you all the time. He doesn't act like anything is wrong because no one has been letting him know that what he did is wrong. Check his health, dog whisper or ass kick or whatever you want to do, but he doesn't really deserve to die for what he did.

Drew -- I am sorry to hear that you got bit -- like I said before, if this is new behavior for the dog and nothing has changed in the environment, take him to the vet and get him checked out -- there may be an underlying medical reason for the change in behavior.

You did ask -- can dogs get Alzheimers -- well, they can have changes in mental health late in life. There are drugs that may help with that. Only a vet will be able to guide you. We had one of our dogs that suddenly had changes in his mental stability late in life -- pet med called Clomicalm helped there.....

Newbie here, however long time lurker. Orphancars is giving the best advice on this thread.

What you have there is a "resource guarding" issue. This isn't an alpha issue, or dog leader issue. You try to solve the problem with the wrong method, it isn't going to work. If you wish to solve this problem with training, I would encourage you to look at teaching the dog to "trade." All dogs resource guard, the ones that don't simply haven't found the resource high enough value that that are guarding; why do you think rawhide is banned in most shelters?