What defines "good" handling?

Hello, I am hoping that this board will blow my mind with intelligence, I'm completely new here. A friend, errhm, more like acquaintance knows that I'm not fond of Car and Driver. He was showing me one of their handling tests hoping I would enjoy it. It's some test called the best handling cars of 200x or whatever. I did find some parts of the article interesting I have always wondered why they don't emphasize the "best handling potential accessibility?" Awkward, but I have felt that a car that is easy to drive fast AND easy to place and correct should be considered a good handling car. I got this idea from racing r/c cars for a few years. I was the most satisfied when the car really helped me be consistent. The C&D seemed to not want to heavily credit the AWDs and front drivers. I thought one of the reasons the EVO's and STi's were regarded so highly was because the journalists could drive them fast and not die? Am I totally wrong, what do you guys think?

Great handling is very subjective. I am a punch and burn autocrosser, I will get caught overdriving into a corner once in a while and lose a lot of momentum from it but I can keep a car buzzing at the edge of it's grip fairly well (I am no Per Schroeder) A car that is set up where I think it feels good would drive a lot of other drivers nuts.

Subjective is the best word....

I like my cars so twitchy and responsive that if i were to sneeze while driving, i suddenly find myself 10 feet over from where i was "pre-sneeze."

"I have felt that a car that is easy to drive fast AND easy to place and correct should be considered a good handling car" - cyclecam90

Not a bad way to put it really. Lack of understeer and good balance does it for me.

Gearheadotaku wrote: "I have felt that a car that is easy to drive fast AND easy to place and correct should be considered a good handling car" - cyclecam90 Not a bad way to put it really. Lack of understeer and good balance does it for me.

Good way of putting it. Different venues will require different handling characteristics from the same car.

I figure a good handling car should do what I tell it to do, when I tell it to do it, while communicating back to me what is happening, without losing control so suddenly that I can get myself in major trouble.

What I want it to do and what I tell it to can be different things though. If you're learning, certain cars can easily hide bad control inputs. I especially see that with AWD cars. That's why I'd say the Evo does not handle well, even though it has massive capabilities. It does not as clearly communicate when you screw up, so it is much easier to learn bad habits.

Predictability, responsiveness, and balance.

Nobody likes a car with steering play, bump steer, massive over/understeer, or the tendency to switch from under/oversteer mid corner. Why did I buy a truck again?

xci_ed6 wrote: Why did I buy a truck again?

To tow your car to and from events.

Oh yeah, cause I needed one

actually, my little S-10 handled very well for what it was. Suprised a lot of people with that thing.

Precision. That is what I always end up valuing much more than speed or power. I think about cars I have owned or driven over the years and my favorites to get up on the wheel and drive all were all 100 bhp ish and 2k lbs or less with precise feel and input processing.

xci_ed6 wrote: Predictability, responsiveness, and balance. Nobody likes a car with steering play, bump steer, massive over/understeer, or the tendency to switch from under/oversteer mid corner. Why did I buy a truck again?

I would agree 100% except that I drive a 911 that has a 30/70 balance, massive understeer or oversteer depending on whether you are driving it badly into or out of a corner. When you give it what it wants... its brilliant and fast so I will change my answer simply to "A car that is rewarding when driven properly".

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: "A car that is rewarding when driven properly".

/thread

There are "bad handling" vehicles, but better drivers always make them do things that lesser drivers cannot.

oldsaw wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: "A car that is rewarding when driven properly".

/thread There are "bad handling" vehicles, but better drivers always make them do things that lesser drivers cannot.

...often while banging their heads on the steering wheel, screaming "WHY THE berkeley WON'T YOU TURN!?"

(srt4.)

John Brown said: I am a punch and burn autocrosser

You are alot like me in that respect. I am much more fluid in rallycross than I am in autocross. I autocross alot like I rallycross. probably not a good thing....

I was pondering this just today when driving. For me the answer is road feel. Both in seat of the pants and steering feel. Give me spherical bearings and polyurethane or derlin bushings everywhere possible. The disconnected sloppy feeling of rubber bushings terrifies me when pushed hard.

I am taking this approach on my E36, all bushings will be upgraded to poly or converted to spherical before I touch any springs, shocks, bars.

Not a lot of lean/dive/roll, neutral, oversteer a bit at the limit, goes where I point it w/ little drama, responsive steering.

That's what good handling's all about, Charlie Brown.

Good handling is:

Not having to scrape the door handles to keep the car from flipping over.

10 years or so one of the major car mags,I think it was Road & Track, tested several cars & declared that the e36 M3 the best handling car in the world.

I would say consistant is a must. While a consistantly understeering car is NOT a good thing, at least it if it always does that, you can work around that limitation.

But honestly, I want a car that I do not have THINK about where it is going to go. I want to track the turn with my eyes and the car to follow.

Good handling is entirely subjective. Its also based on driver skill. A novice racer needs some cushion built into the handling... not soft ride, but I mean a wide margin of error. If you put a novice in an F1 car, they would lose it in turn one.

The tires, suspension, and chassis of the car all react in certain ways. On most street cars, the threshold between grip and slip is very generous. Take a Camry around an autoX course and you'll find that its slow, but it is very progressive in how it gives up grip at the extreme.

As you go up the scale with handling, you lose that cushion to a degree. You can get far more peak grip, but it comes at the expense of that cushion. It takes a very skilled driver to know the limits of his or her car. In a Camry, if you are at the peak of cornering grip and you yank the wheel, it will just slip a little more and continue on the same basic path. In a well-tuned race car, when you are at the limit, one mistake will send you into the wall.

On a street car, the margin between grip and slip is a mile wide. On a race car the margin is very small. "Good" handling is therefore up to the driver's skill more than the car itself.

Gearheadotaku wrote: actually, my little S-10 handled very well for what it was. Suprised a lot of people with that thing.

I'm not all that surprized to hear that, my datsun 620 was better than it had any right to be too. I'm not sure if it handled well because of, or inspite of the no name brand tires made of cast iron.

I think the most important traits of a "good handling" car are consistancy and predictability. With those two traits you can learn to drive a car to the edge of its envelope quickly and safely. Thats why some times tortices do beat hares.

"Subjective" is a word that's been thrown around a lot, and for good reason. Balance and predictability are important, but a lot of people forget that different driving styles (I'm talking between drivers of "equal" ability here, not something like the difference between a pro & noob) define balance & predictability differently.

For example, my Corrados are considered to handle very well..for a FWD. What that means is that the rear rotates much like a RWD car, but a little smoother and predictable than the "snap-out" my A2 Golf does. Of course, on a tighter course I prefer to be able to flick the Golf's tail out. But on a big sweeper, I prefer the "natural" tendency of the Corrado to swing out just enough to get the nose pointed in the right direction, and then take a set and let me finish the corner.

I've also noticed that we all seem to be talking more about poise and control more than we're talking about stuff like absolute mechanical grip, etc. I think that in itself speaks volumes about what "good handling" really is. I agree with HappyAndy, really..all better grip does is raise the edge of the envelope. If you can't trust it well enough to put it at that edge, it's really not handling very well at all.

Lots of great points here, especially about subjectivity and venue.

For a good FWD street car / autocrosser, I like adjustability. Struts and rear bar specifically. I like something that's tame, yet tossable on the street, and something that enjoys/rewards being driven in anger on an auto-x course.

I'm pretty berkeleying aggressive on an auto-x course, so a little trail-brake or lift-throttle induced oversteer is great. However, I've driven friends cars that are so tail happy, I have to struggle just to get a clean run. Works great for them, and it shows in the times. Just not my thing.

I'm also of the Dave Hardy school of thought that the same things that make a great FWD autocross car make it downright miserable, perhaps even dangerous on the street.

I had a CRX for years. Great handling car. All the experts say so. They go like stink on the track and hold all kinds of records.

Except for me. I never really got the hang of how to make that car work right in the turns. I never could figure out when the rear end was going to come around. So I could never get it to go really fast in the turns. I was never comfortable racing it.

For me, it wasn't such a great handling car.

The current Miata is perhaps the greatest handling car I have ever driven. For no other reason than I find the car extremely easy to control and drive hard. I can feel what the car is doing, I can predict what it's going to do, I can tell as I'm coming up on the edge of traction, and balance it there. Is it the fastest car on the track? No. But I can probably drive it faster on a track than I could any other car.

And that includes my very hot and race prepped Spitfire. Another very responsive and quick handling car. But I bet I could get better lap times with the Miata, because I can feel and control the car better.

Wait, isn't the answer simply, "Miata"?