What do you look for in a bank?

It seems all of the banks like to change the terms and condtions of accounts and start charging fees. It's usually buried in that little insert that comes with each statement. But NOWHERE do they send you a letter saying "hey we are going to do it". I got hit for a $20/month fee from First Citizens Bank, a bank I really like(d). I went to FCB years ago after BB&T did the exact same thing. I have a nice little chunk in savings in these banks drawing 0.05% interest and they are going to screw me over a checking account fee. When the bottom dropped out, I wanted some of the CEOs to go to prison.

spitfirebill wrote: It seems all of the banks like to change the terms and condtions of accounts and start charging fees. It's usually buried in that little insert that comes with each statement. But NOWHERE do they send you a letter saying "hey we are going to do it". I got hit for a $20/month fee from First Citizens Bank, a bank I really like(d). I went to FCB years ago after BB&T did the exact same thing. I have a nice little chunk in savings in these banks drawing 0.05% interest and they are going to screw me over a checking account fee. When the bottom dropped out, I wanted some of the CEOs to go to prison.

Would you have stayed with the bank if they did send that letter saying they were going to do it?

I have been with Key Bank for years. No complaints. Local office handy and when I walk in the manager greets me and asks how my new car is doing. Not always, just sometimes. Tellers are friendly.

It is regional so not available to all.

I look for Credit Unions specifically and haven't suffered the indignity of a wallstreet bank with exception of my mortgage. I currently use two diff credit unions and below is the reason why.

Chemcel fed credit union Dallas Tx Checking acct pays 2.75% interest on up to 20k balance No fees but have to have a direct deposit, 12 charges, and check the online balance each mnth I have no fees to use any other atm local and they have ridiculously cheap loans

Kemba credit union Cincinnati Ohio Checking pays 2.25% interest on balance to 20k No fees but i have to have 12 charges and 1 atm withdrawal per mnth Ridiculous cheap loans and good local customer service

As a bonus round all other expenses get routed thru cashback credit cards paid mthly that net out another $75 month in the banks paying me to spend my money.

As an added bonus just had Kemba give my boy a sweet banking lesson and open up a savings acct in his name...

mtn wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

mtn wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Right now I can't switch easily because my daughter's accounts are linked to mine, but when she turns 18 in July that ends. When that does, I'm going to TD Bank; that's who handles all of the commercial accounts relating to my dad's estate and Wells Fargo can kiss my ass. EDIT: I'd really like to go to a credit union, but there is a possible move (the timing is unclear at the moment) in my future. That means I'd have to swap around again. Once I get resettled I'll look into a CU in the new area.

What do you like about TD, on both the commercial and retail side?

I can access accounts via Internet as easily through TD as I can WF. Their mobile app works as well, too. Around here, they have probably 2/3 the branches but that's a good thing; their overhead is lower. I can get a no-fee checking account. So far they've never screwed up our commercial stuff. My oldest brother switched to TD from BB&T a few years ago; he has had nothing but good to say. I dislike WF's sneakiness, particularly the whole PLOC BS. All they had to do was notify me the account was being closed due to inactivity, the whole 'credit score' thing was completely unnecessary. So was the fee for my account dropping below $1500. Oh yeah, one other thing: for various reasons I needed to link one of our TD accounts to my WF. After going through all the crap, I can transfer from the TD account to my WF account but not the other way around. TD says they will transfer both ways but WF won't allow it; company policy they say.

Do you know why your brother switched from BB&T? Because I've heard nothing but good things from them, and I really like their CEO--he just seems to get it, and his message has always been customer service. Did they lose that with your brother? Keep in mind, I cannot bank with them due to location. So I don't know a lot of people with them either.

I honestly don't know why he switched. I can find out, might be a few days. So far, everyone I've asked about TD has been happy with them. But, for all I know, they might pull a WF on me.

OBTW: as long as we are on the subject of financial institutions, I had some really poor experiences with Edward Jones. Everyone I dealt with was nice, but here's the problem: their advice made THEM money but not ME. I had a Roth IRA with them which, after ~7 years? was worth LESS than I started out with. EJ's fees ate up every penny I might have gained and a little more beside. Then, to add insult to injury, when I closed the thing (various reasons) they hit me for $200 to close the account. I cannot in good conscience recommend them to anyone. From what I understand, all the 'big advertising' funds like them will do you the same way.

Curmudgeon wrote: OBTW: as long as we are on the subject of financial institutions, I had some really poor experiences with Edward Jones. Everyone I dealt with was nice, but here's the problem: their advice made THEM money but not ME. I had a Roth IRA with them which, after ~7 years? was worth LESS than I started out with. EJ's fees ate up every penny I might have gained and a little more beside. Then, to add insult to injury, when I closed the thing (various reasons) they hit me for $200 to close the account. I cannot in good conscience recommend them to anyone. From what I understand, all the 'big advertising' funds like them will do you the same way.

This is something that really gets me as well. Thankfully my dad was well versed in this and told me what to do all throughout my childhood, so that when I did it, I did it right. The numbers don't lie: non-managed index funds beat managed funds almost every time, and in the long run, every time. And they're cheaper. Vanguard FTMFW.

While non-managed index funds often beat the performance of managed mutual funds when the market is strong, Curmudgeon was complaining about the net performance of his managed retirement account--so, apples and oranges.

Whether managed investment portfolios are worth the fees providers charge is a whole 'nother topic (in Curmudgeon's case, No). But in principle, an investment portfolio that is routinely rebalanced to maximize diversification and minimize fee, trading and tax expenses is a more sound investment strategy than just dropping your savings into an index fund.

In reply to nderwater:

I put that money and more into a fund that I manage, sonofabitch guess what? I make a fair chunk off of that. It's in an IRA so I can't use any of it, the beauty part is that when it comes time to start drawing off of it all I have to do is open a different account using the exact same fund and start transferring money within the IRS guidelines. Once I pay taxes on it, I can tap it for the monthly returns, leave the principal alone. Gimme the index fund every time. I might not make the huge gains that people brag about, but it steadily makes me money, just clicking right along. And yes it's a Vanguard fund.

By the way, my kid's 529 is under her mother's control and is still with the same Edward Jones branch. It has not made her a dime since inception; it's always hovered right around the amount deposited. I've tried to get the ex to change it but she refuses. My mom's money is in a managed account (not with Edward Jones) and she continually complains that she doesn't make anything off of it, yet she won't change either.

mtn wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: It seems all of the banks like to change the terms and condtions of accounts and start charging fees. It's usually buried in that little insert that comes with each statement. But NOWHERE do they send you a letter saying "hey we are going to do it". I got hit for a $20/month fee from First Citizens Bank, a bank I really like(d). I went to FCB years ago after BB&T did the exact same thing. I have a nice little chunk in savings in these banks drawing 0.05% interest and they are going to screw me over a checking account fee. When the bottom dropped out, I wanted some of the CEOs to go to prison.

Would you have stayed with the bank if they did send that letter saying they were going to do it?

I stayed with the second bank. When I realized I was getting hosed I went in and they put me in a differnet progam that didn't cost. SO to answer your question, I would have gone in earlier and changed. If I didn't like FCB, I would have pulled all my money out and gone to a credit union. It seems to me the more the little banks get bought up by the bigger banks, the more they take away and the more customer satisfaction goes down.

nderwater wrote: While non-managed index funds almost always beat the performance of managed mutual funds when the market is strong or weak, Curmudgeon was complaining about the net performance of his managed retirement account--so, tangerines and oranges. Whether managed investment portfolios are worth the fees providers charge is a while 'nother topic (in Curmudgeon's case, *No*). But in principle, an investment portfolio that is routinely rebalanced to maximize diversification and minimize fee, trading and tax expenses is a more sound investment strategy than just dropping your savings into an index fund.

Fixed your post. Net performance is all that matters. So if they're charging 1%, and do .5% better than an index fund, guess what, they are not beating the market.

Fact is, finding someone who rebalances it correctly an efficiently is near impossible. I've started to do research on the robo-advisors--Betterment and others--and that seems like it could be promising. But for right now, I'm in the passive index funds (or their ETF equivalents).

Curmudgeon wrote: I put that money and more into a fund that I manage, sonofabitch guess what? I make a fair chunk off of that. It's in an IRA so I can't use any of it, the beauty part is that when it comes time to start drawing off of it all I have to do is open a different account using the exact same fund and start transferring money within the IRS guidelines.

Just like high fees, most of the general public gets caught out by needlessly overpaying taxes. Good on you to take the initiative to do research and develop a plan.

mtn wrote: Fact is, finding someone who rebalances it correctly an efficiently is near impossible. I've started to do research on the robo-advisors--Betterment and others--and that seems like it could be promising. But for right now, I'm in the passive index funds (or their ETF equivalents).

Not to paddle a canoe, but I've been really impressed by the portfolio management algorithms these guys use. If you choose not to have them manage your investments (at 0.5%) they still offer excellent analysis and advice for free.

nderwater wrote:

mtn wrote: Fact is, finding someone who rebalances it correctly an efficiently is near impossible. I've started to do research on the robo-advisors--Betterment and others--and that seems like it could be promising. But for right now, I'm in the passive index funds (or their ETF equivalents).

Not to paddle a canoe, but I've been really impressed by the portfolio management algorithms these guys use. If you choose not to have them manage your investments (at 0.5%) they still offer excellent analysis and advice for free.

Future Advisor is one of the "and others" that I was referencing above.

nderwater wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: I put that money and more into a fund that I manage, sonofabitch guess what? I make a fair chunk off of that. It's in an IRA so I can't use any of it, the beauty part is that when it comes time to start drawing off of it all I have to do is open a different account using the exact same fund and start transferring money within the IRS guidelines.

Just like high fees, most of the general public gets caught out by needlessly overpaying taxes. Good on you to take the initiative to do research and develop a plan.

I just have to split it up; if I yank it in a big chunk the tax man is gonna have a field day. I can start pulling at 59 1/2 and the receiving account needs to be a Roth. That way the taxes get taken up front but not on the dividends and I can easily pass it on to my daughter. IIRC I can put any post tax money I want to into that Roth and the dividends are tax free; in fact I need to confirm that.

Most banks have their own strategy for finding profit centers. Some use ATM fees; others use overdraft fees. BBT is best known by me for manipulating when they give you credit for the deposit and what checks they can run thru the account before you get full credit for the deposit thus increasing the fees. I can usually get the locals to refund the fees because they are embarrassed by the way it happens.

Comfort.

Contrary to what they tell you, banks are not your friends. The less you deal with them the more money you can keep.

I do 95% of may banking online and use an ATM for cash. I find out who has the most ATMs or free access to the most ATMs and go with that bank.

Then I join a credit union and use their low rates to buy stuff like houses and cars.

The two institutions have NEVER been the same. Served me well through 3 moves across several states.

I never step in a bank, I use Walmart for cash. Direct deposit to my local bank then buy some hotwheels and get cash back. I don't think I've been to an ATM in two years.

If you are looking for online banking and the latest tech (deposits by cell phone pics, etc.) the bigger banks tend to do that well, though they don't do customer service very well. They also tend to not care if they screw you over if you've got a smaller account with them. They tend to whipsaw you on products, too, since they are being "innovative" after all. We use Wells Fargo for our checking account because the wife pays all the bills and she really likes their online banking. We tried a "regional" bank once, but went back to WF because their online banking didn't have the same functionality. We keep enough money in the WF account that we never have to worry about fees and we even earn a miniscule amount of interest.

If you're looking for personal attention and want people to know who you are when you walk into a branch, go with a small bank or credit union. However, my wife is guardian for her mother's account with a small podunk bank and is constantly complaining about how difficult it is to downloand info into Quicken and such when putting together reports for the court. YMMV.

We just moved all our investment accounts to Vanguard, as well. I'm in process of switching from our current funds to Vanguard funds. I got tired of paying a financial advisor when I was telling her where I wanted to invest. She did fine with returns and didn't charge exorbitant fees, but I was paying a percentage and as the account grew her value-add was less and less worth the dollar amount of the fees. The Vanguard funds themselves have low management fees, which certainly affects yield over time, as well.

The Vanguard target funds are really great investment vehicles for those that want to "fire and forget" or for the smaller, less sophisticated investor that is overwhelmed by the complexity of portfolio theory and the investment options available.

Full disclosure, I'm a commercial banker (not a blood-sucking Wall Street investment-banker like Goldman Sucks) with an advanced degree in finance.

Basil Exposition wrote: Full disclosure, I'm a commercial banker (not a blood-sucking Wall Street investment-banker like Goldman Sucks) with an advanced degree in finance.

mind me asking where? PM if you want.

A debit card is a must in my book, of course every financial institution offers them. I carry a minimal amount of cash, maybe $40 or so for those 'just in case' moments. Everything else I plasticize. Reason: I can see instantly what my balance is and I have a record of what the purchase was.

I mentioned my bitches about WF, here's another anecdote about them. As I mentioned, TD Bank has our commercial accounts. I needed to do a cash transfer to cover property taxes, easy peasy just transfer online, right? Nope. After MANY efforts and phone calls, WF refuses to allow me to transfer from my WF to the TD account, although I can do it the other way. The money needed to go to my brother in another city, so I called him, apologized for WF's stupidity and dropped a check in the mail. How 1980's, right? So I watch my accounts pretty closely, check in at least once a day, after ~8 days still hadn't seen the check clear. Called bro, he said he had not seen it yet. So I wound up having to withdraw cash, give it to my brother here in town who banks with B of A, he deposits it then he does an EFT to the SAME DAMN TD ACCOUNT. And to add insult to injury WF wants $30 to stop payment on the check. Screw them; if they were as up to date as B of A (I can't believe I just typed that) or TD then I wouldn't be in this pickle in the first place. Jerks.

mtn wrote:

Basil Exposition wrote: Full disclosure, I'm a commercial banker (not a blood-sucking Wall Street investment-banker like Goldman Sucks) with an advanced degree in finance.

mind me asking where? PM if you want.

Texas.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

Just curious on the debit card thing. I've never used one and I wonder why people do. I use my USAA Mastercard for everyday purchases and always pay off the balance so I never get charged anything for using it.

I understand some folks may not have access to a credit card, so they don't have any choice if they want to go plastic, and others may not have the discipline to pay off a credit card, but is there any other reason?

I've always felt the fraud protection, especially in today's environment, is better with the credit card than a debit card.

Dunno about yours but my debit card has fraud protection too, learned that quickly last year. I try to stay away from having a fistful of credit cards. Not saying that's what you are doing, just mentioning that a lot of people have a bunch of CC's, use them impulsively in an emergency or whatever and before they know it they are in deep crap. I actually had that happen to me back in the mid 1990's, it took about 3 years of careful discipline to pay them all off and then chop them up. Hard but good lesson to learn; I have no gas, dept store etc CC's, only 1 Visa card with a high limit and a good rate and my debit card.

Debit cards do have fraud protections, granted, but they're not the same and not as good as the ones on credit cards (no matter how often Dave Ramsey says they do).

The main issue is that the money leaves your account can take a while to be restored (IIRC banks have up to two weeks to restore the money, although some are much faster than that) while you end up with checks potentially bouncing, mortgages not being paid and other fun stuff like that. Things get really ugly if the card has been cloned together with the PIN (which has happened, all it takes is a skimmer and a miniature camera) as some banks then seem to automatically assume the customer authorized the transactions because they can't tell a cloned card from the "real thing" at that point.

This should get better once the switchover to the more secure chip and pin system used in the rest of the world is complete as cloning cards is going to become much, much harder at that point.