What, no thread on health care yet?

I believe quality health care is a human right. Others may not, but that's okay, because I also believe in freedom of expression..

So as D. Boon would say, "Dig this big krux:"

If quality health care is a 'human right,' at what point do we pull the plug on you? If I'm 85 years old and need $100,000 worth of surgery to keep me alive for six months, does the Canadian gov't say "Oh yes sir, right away sir, to the front of the line!"

Regarding "Freedom of Expression," I'm pretty sure if I lived there, I'd have been arrested for "hate speech" by the Canadian thought mounties by now.

By the way, how much does a 1.75L jug of Crown cost in your neck of the woods?

ZOO wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: If I remember correctly, what he was most upset about was that he was told how to be a doctor. There was no more using your own judgment about anything, you had to follow their recommendations period. He came here to actually practice medicine. Evidently there wasn't a ton of difference in what he was making (they moved to a small town here), it was that he could actually "take care" of his patients. I won't go into any more as Alan could explain better.

You know, Canadians are intelligent, hard-working, and resourceful people. If we felt that we were being screwed by our system, we would do something about it. Health care is one of the "sacred" government services, but that doesn't stop anyone from questioning its effectiveness, or demanding accountability or greater efficiency. It's a healthy debate, and one that seemingly never ends, but in all likelihood makes the service stronger. It's like anyhting -- if you look hard enough, or have an "agenda" there are probably many "faults". On the other hand, it doesn't take too much looking to find people who are happy with the access to services they have under our system.

Not much different than the agendas posed on this side of the border.

The big difference is that Canadians have had over five decades to integrate a universal system into to the national psyche. In the US, the proposition is the antithesis of what has been promoted as "the way to go" for the same amount of time.

In business, a huge number of sales are lost because the salesman couldn't convince the customer the "deal" would work for their benefit. It's bad when the salesman cannot articulate the gains, worse when the product obviously sucks.

poopshovel wrote:

I believe quality health care is a human right. Others may not, but that's okay, because I also believe in freedom of expression..

So as D. Boon would say, "Dig this big krux:" If quality health care is a 'human right,' at what point do we pull the plug on you? If I'm 85 years old and need $100,000 worth of surgery to keep me alive for six months, does the Canadian gov't say "Oh yes sir, right away sir, to the front of the line!" Regarding "Freedom of Expression," I'm pretty sure if I lived there, I'd have been arrested for "hate speech" by the Canadian thought mounties by now. By the way, how much does a 1.75L jug of Crown cost in your neck of the woods?

Don't be an e-thug.

We don't pull the plug on anyone. But we may get to a point where end-of-life care is liberated by the ability of a patient to die with dignity. I guarantee that as more boomers age, this will become an important issue. Like most other systems, we would use a triage approach -- that 85 year old won't jump the queue at the expense of someone else.

You would only be arrested for hate crimes if you promoted hatred against an identifiable group -- I can live with that restriction, too. Your own Justice Holmes said that there are limits to free speech in the US, as well.

I don't measure the quality of my life, or my standard of living by the cost of alcohol. There are lots of areas of the world where that jug of Crown is but a fraction of the cost I pay, but I wouldn't want to live there. I am okay with taxes -- they pay for things that improve my quality of life. I'm not sure when we began to forget the "common good" to profit "individual good". I'm not okay with taxes that are spent without regard to benefit.

I was about to comment that it was refreshing to read 10 pages of intelligent, and friendly discourse about this issue on a forum. But you may have skewed my thougts on that matter with the tone of your post. However, I am sure you didn't intend to come across in the manner you did.

Does Canada have the Bill of Rights? How about the Constitution? A nice, hard fought revolutionary war that nearly cost our founding fathers their lives?

No? Then your comparisons are moot. Sorry, but unless you gov't has outlined it's laws and rights with the same wording, same documentation as we have then your comparisons to your motherland are not valid.

Sorry, I've been following Canadians on every board lately touting how great they are blah blah blah and how much better they have it sacrificing their civil liberties, freedoms and income to the motherland to supplement someone else.

Guess what, this isn't Canada. glad you love it. I know many that are looking to get OUT of there.

Wait a minute. Canada isn't a U.S. possession?

So conservative blowhard Rush Limbaugh said he will move to Costa Rica if the bill passed. I guess were finally going to get rid of him! Wonder if he knows that they have universal healthcare in Costa Rica? 1 down 2 to go!

Bobzilla wrote: Does Canada have the Bill of Rights? How about the Constitution? A nice, hard fought revolutionary war that nearly cost our founding fathers their lives? No? Then your comparisons are moot. Sorry, but unless you gov't has outlined it's laws and rights with the same wording, same documentation as we have then your comparisons to your motherland are not valid. Sorry, I've been following Canadians on every board lately touting how great they are blah blah blah and how much better they have it sacrificing their civil liberties, freedoms and income to the motherland to supplement someone else. Guess what, this isn't Canada. glad you love it. I know many that are looking to get OUT of there.

We have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And countless Canadians have fought for those rights (just like in the US). It's worth a read:

Charter of Rights and Freedoms

Interesting, in that they are ENSHRINED in the Constitution -- unlike a Bill of Rights they CANNOT be changed by legislation. Big difference.

All of the Canadians who have responded in this thread have been respectul, and simply pointed out their experiences. There hasn't been bravodo and BS about how great our system is. There has been an honest dialogue about what it costs us, and what it provides based on questions asked by other forum members who appear to be interested. That may not be the case on other forums, but you don't need to read them.

SupraWes wrote: So conservative blowhard Rush Limbaugh said he will move to Costa Rica if the bill passed. I guess were finally going to get rid of him! Wonder if he knows that they have universal healthcare in Costa Rica? 1 down 2 to go!

Your lack of knowledge mitigates your biased and ignorance-based wishes.

You FAIL, served to you by one who occasionally listens to the fat man, as well as others equally distasteful.

SVreX wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: Seems to me the insurance company (mine is BC/BS) has lowered my costs.

I am not blaming insurance companies for the high cost of health insurance. I blame a medical industry with no controls or competitiveness on it, which includes the influence the insurance industry. Your costs are not lower. Your costs are significantly higher, masked behind a system which spreads them over many people and a lot of time. The availability of insurance makes you happy to pay your portion of $3K (plus insurance premiums, associated tax increases, invisible fees, and costs incurred through various other agencies and structures, accrued interest, fees, etc.) instead of $20K (which is probably likely actually costing the system more like $35K, after the same associated costs) for a procedure that could probably be done for only a couple of thousand, if the system was designed to be competitive. Don't forget- SOMEBODY is paying those fees. Your short term out-of-pocket may be lower. The long term costs to you and the system are higher. Note my post near the bottom of this page: My experience paying hospital bills

I owe you another beer

My family doctor charges $85 for an office visit if you are filing insurance. He only charges $50 if paying cash. My insurance is catastrophic coverage only. When looking for another family doctor (mine retired) I got on the phone and called over a dozen offices to get prices. He wasn't the lowest, but after a visit I liked him. He got my business. That is how you control costs.

When you shop for tires who do you buy from. How about auto parts. I shop prices first and then service. If health care was handled the same way, prices would be a lot lower. You want prices too come down, let Walmart get into the doctor business (which I have heard they are considering) just like they did the prescription drug business. That is how competition controls prices. Shop your health care just like your tires. As long as insurance companies are footing the bills, people don't care. The new government deal will just make the problem worse.

There is even a web site that you can compare pricing of hospitals in your area. Make them compete for your business, you may just be surprised with the results.Hospital Pricing

Edited to add link

SupraWes wrote: So conservative blowhard Rush Limbaugh said he will move to Costa Rica if the bill passed. I guess were finally going to get rid of him! Wonder if he knows that they have universal healthcare in Costa Rica? 1 down 2 to go!

Bye bye rush.

good riddance.

Maybe oxycontin is easier to get down there?

poopshovel wrote: By the way, how much does a 1.75L jug of Crown cost in your neck of the woods?

Ha..

You know I am going to try to make it some part of Canada this year for a mini vacation. I'll let you know.

I'm also trying to get a postion in my company there. We'll see how that goes.

I have a friend who hates it because the taxes are high and they won't let him bring his AR-15 across the border. Something about not being a citizen and owning an assault rifle.... But those are his only complaints, He loves the fact that they have good schools and a very high standard of living(that and the fact that Toyota moved him there so he has a gigantic Ex-Pat package, but is really not living abroad in the true sense)

oldsaw wrote:

Joe Gearin wrote:

oldsaw wrote:

zomby woof wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Ann Coulter may disagree, if you gave her the opportunity.

Her name has been on the radio all day. Who is she (and what does that mean)?

You have a computer, a radio and presumably TV. Do some research.

She is that painfully skinny, angry chick that used to date Bill Maher.

If I were a "chick" who dated Bill Maher, I'd be angry and suffering from anorexia, too! Actions have consequences.

Ann Coulter is one of the most truly bitter people in the whole world. I think she is the definition of "Equal-Oppourtunity Hater." I think she hates everyone, including herself, equally.

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

SVreX wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: $37 a month here Mitchell, and im ooooooooooooold compared to you.

Please tell more.

38yo non smoker with mild asthma as my only health concern. BCBS of Florida Blue Options BC 090 BS 590 $250 deductible in network $750 out of network Coinsurance (they pay) 80% in network, 60% out of network Max out of pocket $2500 in network, $5000 out of network Max lifetime benefit $5,000,000 Well child Coinsurance (they pay) 80% no benefit maximum Emergency room deductible $2500 (which quite intentionally is the same as my max out of pocket so after $2500 I am 100% covered) Outpatient/inpatient/specialist/labs/physician visits standard $250/$750 deductible and 80% in network 60% out of network coinsurance with $2500 max out of pocket.

Do they sell out of state?

Similar plans are available through most BCBS states.

For the record, i'm REALLY surprised at how many people really have no idea whatsoever how health insurance in general works.

This bill was mis-named. There's no health CARE reform in it. Just health INSURANCE "reform." (Errrr... i mean.... bullE36 M3 meddling.)

spitfirebill wrote: I cannot understand you folks who are blaming insurance companies for the high cost of medical care. I go to the hospital and get an MRI, the hospital bill is $2,000 or more. Insurance pays out much less, I pay a relatively small portion and the hospital says OK. If I didn't have insurance I would be stuck with the full amount and would likely have to pre-pay. I had a 15 minute procedue to remove a small tumor from my bladder, First hospital bill was almost 20K. Final was around 3K. Seems to me the insurance company (mine is BC/BS) has lowered my costs. One problem I see if the costs at hospitals is they all want to have the latest greatest equipment. Used to be only one at a time could have an MRI, CT or whatever. They cost several million dollars and are "out of date" in a few years. Nothing wrong, with them, just not new with all the frills. I suspect they are trashed when they could really be used elsewhere, maybe even overseas in some third world country.

You get it. Tuna55 gets it.

How exactly does an industry that sees a 3% profit margin get such a bad rep?

oldsaw wrote:

SupraWes wrote: So conservative blowhard Rush Limbaugh said he will move to Costa Rica...

Your lack of knowledge mitigates your biased and ignorance-based wishes. You FAIL, served to you by one who occasionally listens to the fat man, as well as others equally distasteful.

From what I can find this is the transcript of what he said:

Caller: If the health care bill passes, where would you go for health care yourself? And the second part of that is, what would happen to the doctors, do they have to participate in the federal program, or could they opt out of it? Limbaugh: My guess is even in Canada and even in the UK, doctors have opted out. And once they’ve opted, they can’t see anybody Medicare, Medicaid, or what will become the exchanges. They have to have a clientele of private patients that will pay them a retainer and it’ll be a very small practice. I don’t know if that’s been outlawed in the Senate bill. I don’t know. I’ll just tell you this, if this passes and it’s five years from now and all that stuff gets implemented — I am leaving the country. I’ll go to Costa Rica.

It reads to me like he either promised to move to Costa Rica (in 5 years), which would seem to be the more likely interpretation or he is planning on going to Costa Rica for his health care (using its socialized system).

93celicaGT2 wrote: How exactly does an industry that sees a 3% profit margin get such a bad rep?

last year it was the oil companies, this year its been insurance companies, who knows who it'll be next. without an industry to villify you cannot create a crisis, and according to rahm you never want to let a good crisis go to waste.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: I cannot understand you folks who are blaming insurance companies for the high cost of medical care. I go to the hospital and get an MRI, the hospital bill is $2,000 or more. Insurance pays out much less, I pay a relatively small portion and the hospital says OK. If I didn't have insurance I would be stuck with the full amount and would likely have to pre-pay. I had a 15 minute procedue to remove a small tumor from my bladder, First hospital bill was almost 20K. Final was around 3K. Seems to me the insurance company (mine is BC/BS) has lowered my costs. One problem I see if the costs at hospitals is they all want to have the latest greatest equipment. Used to be only one at a time could have an MRI, CT or whatever. They cost several million dollars and are "out of date" in a few years. Nothing wrong, with them, just not new with all the frills. I suspect they are trashed when they could really be used elsewhere, maybe even overseas in some third world country.

You get it. Tuna55 gets it. How exactly does an industry that sees a 3% profit margin get such a bad rep?

The health insurance industry is like a loan shark or crack dealer facilitating a nation of hypochondriac prescription pill junkies.

MrJoshua wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: I cannot understand you folks who are blaming insurance companies for the high cost of medical care. I go to the hospital and get an MRI, the hospital bill is $2,000 or more. Insurance pays out much less, I pay a relatively small portion and the hospital says OK. If I didn't have insurance I would be stuck with the full amount and would likely have to pre-pay. I had a 15 minute procedue to remove a small tumor from my bladder, First hospital bill was almost 20K. Final was around 3K. Seems to me the insurance company (mine is BC/BS) has lowered my costs. One problem I see if the costs at hospitals is they all want to have the latest greatest equipment. Used to be only one at a time could have an MRI, CT or whatever. They cost several million dollars and are "out of date" in a few years. Nothing wrong, with them, just not new with all the frills. I suspect they are trashed when they could really be used elsewhere, maybe even overseas in some third world country.

You get it. Tuna55 gets it. How exactly does an industry that sees a 3% profit margin get such a bad rep?

The health insurance industry is like a loan shark or crack dealer facilitating a nation of hypochondriac prescription pill junkies.

Hrmmm.... please explain?

93celicaGT2 wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: I cannot understand you folks who are blaming insurance companies for the high cost of medical care. I go to the hospital and get an MRI, the hospital bill is $2,000 or more. Insurance pays out much less, I pay a relatively small portion and the hospital says OK. If I didn't have insurance I would be stuck with the full amount and would likely have to pre-pay. I had a 15 minute procedue to remove a small tumor from my bladder, First hospital bill was almost 20K. Final was around 3K. Seems to me the insurance company (mine is BC/BS) has lowered my costs. One problem I see if the costs at hospitals is they all want to have the latest greatest equipment. Used to be only one at a time could have an MRI, CT or whatever. They cost several million dollars and are "out of date" in a few years. Nothing wrong, with them, just not new with all the frills. I suspect they are trashed when they could really be used elsewhere, maybe even overseas in some third world country.

You get it. Tuna55 gets it. How exactly does an industry that sees a 3% profit margin get such a bad rep?

The health insurance industry is like a loan shark or crack dealer facilitating a nation of hypochondriac prescription pill junkies.

Hrmmm.... please explain?

Health insurance hides the cost of medical care or drugs and spreads those costs over a long enough time to make them less painfull. Without true knowledge of price and having paid into they system anyway people gravitate towards taking anything offered,available, and advertised and expecting premium treatment. Got the sniffles-go to the doctor, back pain-get some pills, doctor is busy-go to the emergency room. Overuse drives up price, increased price and lack of immediate financial burden drives up expectation of service. Eventually the price gets too high even if you spread it over time-waaaaaaaaaaaah, it's a crisis, won't the govt please do something?

At one time most people used health insurance to prevent going bankrupt, eventually people came to use it to pay every dime of their health care. That eventually became a bad deal and many people opted out. opting out meant increases in prices for everyone else. Now opting out is not an option.

93-tell me how an industry with profits in the many billions attached to my health care makes it cheaper?

zomby woof wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: I'm not singling you out, trust me... But care to explain why the insurance companies are what's tanking the health care system?

Sure you're singling me out, you're just being nice about it Profit at the expense of your health. Who do you trust more (or who do you distrust less), your government, or the insurance companies? I'll take the government every time. I'm sure the people who work for the insurance companies are nice, but your health is not their first priority.

Wow.

So health care, an essential of human survival, should not be sold at a profit?

What about food? That's about as vital as it comes. So by that line of reasoning, farmers should never be allowed to make a profit off of food. What about housing? That's essential; no housing, you die. No profit for homebuilders.

Yet both of those industries are 'allowed by government' (now there is a weird phrase here in the Great Satan) to be private and make a profit in the Great White North.

So what makes health care so special that there should be no profit motive, other than that you have had so-called 'free' (it ain't) health care since birth?

ignorant wrote: Ann Coulter is one of the most truly bitter people in the whole world. I think she is the definition of "Equal-Oppourtunity Hater." I think she hates everyone, including herself, equally.

Hyperbole is a tool often used by people to make a point, as used by some posting on this topic.

Zomby woof said: I'm sure the people who work for the insurance companies are nice, but your health is not their first priority

This is what I meant. Do you want your health in their hands? I wouldn't.

oldsaw wrote:

ignorant wrote: Ann Coulter is one of the most truly bitter people in the whole world. I think she is the definition of "Equal-Oppourtunity Hater." I think she hates everyone, including herself, equally.

Hyperbole is a tool often used by people to make a point, as used by some posting on this topic.

speaking of hyperbole...

Sorry I made fun of your girlfriend...

zomby woof wrote:

Zomby woof said: I'm sure the people who work for the insurance companies are nice, but your health is not their first priority

This is what I meant. Do you want your health in their hands? I wouldn't.

Rather them than some government bureaucrat. Have you been to the DMV lately. There is nothing worse than dealing with an indifferent public servant.