What, no thread on health care yet?

1. I really don't get why people are calling this a government takeover. The government, even as provider of last resort, is out, so this is all private no Government.

2. Health care stocks are up as people are suddenly realizing that 30 million more people will now become customers so it's good business for them, both providers and manufacturers.

3. Once the hubbub has died down I very much doubt you'll see this reversed. It's not going to be a popular move if they start limiting health care again. Also even if there are a few diehards out there, where will their support ($$$'s campaign contributions) come from now that the doctors, providers and manufacturers look to benefit from it.

4. Hopefully when the exchanges come on line this will start to push costs down.

5. Did any one see the report from the Congressional budget office that health care reform will CUT the deficit by $1.3 trillion $'s over the next 20 years?

4.

I heard the fine is $2,000 or 2.5% and I assume it’s which ever is higher. If that’s the case, the penalty begins climbing beyond $2,000 once you’re income exceeds $80,000. The thing is, about half of middle class families have no positive cash flow at all. In fact, their debt increases year over year. I believe plans are in place to provide some sort of relief for household incomes below $88,000 but unless the relief is 100% which is just another way of saying full on socialized medicine, a huge percent of families will have no choice but to just blow off getting insurance and see what happens.

BTW, I understand the IRS has to add 14,500 jobs to manage all this. Assuming a burden rate of $120,000 per year, that adds 1.74 billion per year in non value added cost to the system right out of the gate.

What's a constitution?

No insurance company can turn you down for preexisting condition. Nice. So you don't need insurance until something goes wrong. I'll call State Farm when I've wrapped the Volvo around a tree, call my homeowners insurance and start a policy as my house burns down... I wonder if they'll expand this to animals, PETA says they are people too! My dogs both need hip replacement - can they be denied for preexisting condition?

Copy and Pasted from Texags.com-

More stuff about the Myths of the bill from a surprising source...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/fact-sheet-the-truth-abou_b_506026.html

quote:

Myth 3: The bill will significantly bring down insurance premiums for most Americans.

Fact: The bill will not bring down premiums significantly, and certainly not the $2,500/year that President Obama promised during his campaign.

Annual premiums in 2016: status quo / with bill: Small group market, single: $7,800 / $7,800 Small group market, family: $19,3oo / $19,200 Large Group market, single: $7,400 / $7,300 Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300 Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800 Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200

(The cost of premiums in the individual market goes up somewhat due to subsidies and mandates of better coverage. The CBO assumes that cost of individual policies goes down 7-10%, and that people will buy more generous policies.)

So, it won't do the ONE thing that Pelosi and the Left have claimed it will do....great!

quote:

Myth 4: The bill will make health care affordable for middle class Americans.

Fact: The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can't afford to use.

A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income -- out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible.

So, it actually ends up doing THE OPPOSITE of what they are trying to do....wonderful!!!

quote:

Myth 6: This bill provides health care to 31 million people who are currently uninsured.

Fact: This bill will mandate that millions of people who are currently uninsured purchase insurance from private companies, or the IRS will collect up to 2% of their annual income in penalties. Some will be assisted with government subsidies.

So...wait, Gobmin not giving away free monies to teh poorz?

quote:

Myth 11: The bill "bends the cost curve" on health care.

Fact: "Bends the cost curve" is a misleading and trivial claim, as the U.S. would still spend far more for care than other advanced countries.

• In 2009, health care costs were 17.3% of GDP.

• Annual cost of health care in 2019, status quo: $4,670.6 billion (20.8% of GDP)

* Annual cost of health care in 2019, Senate bill: $4,693.5 billion (20.9% of GDP)

READ THAT BOLD PART! This bill actually INCREASES the amount of money the US will spend on healthcare. INCREASES!!!!!!

quote:

Myth 15: This bill will stop insurance companies from hiking rates 30%-40% per year.

Fact: This bill does not limit insurance company rate hikes. Private insurers continue to be exempt from anti-trust laws, and are free to raise rates without fear of competition in many areas of the country.

Just amazing.....

Adrian_Thompson wrote: 5. Did any one see the report from the Congressional budget office that health care reform will CUT the deficit by $1.3 trillion $'s over the next 20 years?

I really don't like the bill for numerous reasons, but if this proves to be true it will be a good thing. Unfortunately, I do not see how it can be true in any way. I hope to God I'm wrong.

tuna55 wrote: What's a constitution? No insurance company can turn you down for preexisting condition. Nice. So you don't need insurance until something goes wrong. I'll call State Farm when I've wrapped the Volvo around a tree, call my homeowners insurance and start a policy as my house burns down... I wonder if they'll expand this to animals, PETA says they are people too! My dogs both need hip replacement - can they be denied for preexisting condition?

That scenario won't happen.

Remember?

Whether you need the insurance or not, you MUST HAVE IT COMRADE.

Also, in talking to a friend of mine who is a doctor with a family practice, and reading a story about an AMA Journal study, there seems the be the thought that we could lose as much as 33% of our existing doctors.

So, if we add 17million uninsured to healthcare, and lose, let's just say 25% to be safe, of our doctors, do you think the quality of care will go up or down?

Also, an interview with medical students now reports that many are worried that they will not make anywhere near the amount needed to pay back student loans for MANY years down the road.

racerfink wrote: Also, in talking to a friend of mine who is a doctor with a family practice, and reading a story about an AMA Journal study, there seems the be the thought that we could lose as much as 33% of our existing doctors. So, if we add 17million uninsured to healthcare, and lose, let's just say 25% to be safe, of our doctors, do you think the quality of care will go up or down? Also, an interview with medical students now reports that many are worried that they will not make anywhere near the amount needed to pay back student loans for MANY years down the road.

Bingo. Vicious circle.

College costs are ridiculously high, equipment costs are high. So they charge more. Insurance has to raise their premiums to combat the elevated prices that are negotiated in contract. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

The biggest thing I learned in this debacle is that partisanship runs so deep that neither party could look beyond themselves to do something that might possible help the American people. Both sides had good ideas for reform but since they couldn't play nice and actually work together we got this instead. This didn't come down to a bill to help Americans, it came down to a bill that the Democrats had to get passed so they could say they did something, while the Republicans had to shoot down the bill simply because it was something the Democrats wanted to do. I was waiting for the Democrats to introduce a bill stating that the sky was blue just to see if the Republicans would oppose it. But both sides were guilty of snubbing the other just for spite.

Boortz said it pretty well last week "the people don't trust the Democrats, but don't get too happy Republicans because they don't trust you either..." Looks like another straight ticket LIbertarian vote for me next time.

Hi Adrian,

Regarding the CBO report that shows 1.3 trillion will be saved.

The CBO can’t possibly make an accurate estimate as profoundly significant details haven’t yet been provided to them. Beyond that, the accounting they’re being asked to use is so deceitful that anyone doing the same thing in the private sector would go to jail. Six years of service paid over ten years means the program will actually cost 67% more than what is claimed (1.67 X 6 = 10).

You said it yourself, medical industry stocks are up…that means they’re expecting to make more money…how the %&$@#$ can they make more money while costs are reduced 1.3 trillion?????????????

Adrian_Thompson wrote: 1. I really don't get why people are calling this a government takeover. The government, even as provider of last resort, is out, so this is all private no Government. 2. Health care stocks are up as people are suddenly realizing that 30 million more people will now become customers so it's good business for them, both providers and manufacturers. 3. Once the hubbub has died down I very much doubt you'll see this reversed. It's not going to be a popular move if they start limiting health care again. Also even if there are a few diehards out there, where will their support ($$$'s campaign contributions) come from now that the doctors, providers and manufacturers look to benefit from it. 4. Hopefully when the exchanges come on line this will start to push costs down. 5. Did any one see the report from the Congressional budget office that health care reform will CUT the deficit by $1.3 trillion $'s over the next 20 years? 4.

1. It's not a government takeover yet. But the government is manipulating the market by colluding with industries and by not addressing the real reasons behind escalating costs. When the costs are unsustainable by the private sector, government will fill the gap.

2. Short-term gains in stock prices only underscore the lack of foresight. Those 30 million extra customers will either pay a government fee to NOT purchase insurance or they will pay higher rates should they choose to actually purchase insurance from a private source.

3. No, it won't be reversed. But, as much as 25% of doctors will voluntarily retire as Medicare/Medicaid funding cuts further interfere with their ability to interact with patients and make any kind of "reasonable" profit. Providers (including pharmacy chains) have already started refusing new Medicare customers because they cannot afford the losses associated with mandated lower reimbursements.

Fewer resources like accessibility to doctors and medication will result in limiting care o raising prices, or both.

1. Hoping the exchanges will affect costs is like hoping Medicare costs (when the program was instituted) would be 9 billion dollars instead of the 110 billion dollars realized.

2. The CBO can only evaluate individual proposed legislation. The office cannot speculate whether, or not, the bill will remain intact before enactment, or what may happen afterwards. BTW, the bill does not include the costs associated with the "doc fix" which (when factored into the equation) actually puts the health-reform bill into deficit territory.

oldsaw wrote: Twenty years hence, I hope the supporters are intellectually honest enough to admit alternatives should have been pursued instead of surrending to your imperial, federal overlord.

Like Social Security and/or Medicare that are broke? Don't hold your breath. This is/was about power and control not health care.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I really don't get why people are calling this a government takeover. The government, even as provider of last resort, is out, so this is all private no Government.

Except the part where they can control WHO and WHAT insurance companies MUST cover. Don't gloss over the "We control the insurance companies" quote. That is the real purpose of this bill, control.

mtn wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: 1. Did any one see the report from the Congressional budget office that health care reform will CUT the deficit by $1.3 trillion $'s over the next 20 years? I really don't like the bill for numerous reasons, but if this proves to be true it will be a good thing. Unfortunately, I do not see how it can be true in any way. I hope to God I'm wrong.

The claimed deficit reduction is a shell game composed of no services for four years while we start paying immediately, the omitted the 'Doctor Fix' bill that adds $200 billion and 'creative' Enron accounting.

jeffmx5 wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Twenty years hence, I hope the supporters are intellectually honest enough to admit alternatives should have been pursued instead of surrending to your imperial, federal overlord.

Like Social Security and/or Medicare that are broke? Don't hold your breath. This is/was about power and control not health care.

Trust me, I am not holding my breath.

Twenty years from now, the supporters will be reveling in their mediocrity. They will be alone in the waiting line at the local clinic while their kids or grandkids abandon them so they can go work to pay off the national debt.

Social Security is not broke. It is just recalling some of the loans the gov't took.

The Republicans did not even try to offer an alternative. This partisinship has to end. Time for the voters to step up and make some changes.

I was just talking to some friends of mine who own a chain of pizza stores. They will have to break up each store into it's own corporation (expensive) and cut staff to stay under the mandated 10 employees because the costs they've seen are too expensive. This will effectively limit the volume and hence the money they can make.

The other alternative is to sell the bigger stores off and lose the income.

I predict that you will see a lot of smaller stores of all kinds rather than larger stores.

The way their accountants have figured it out even with increased overheads they'll still net more than having to pay for the insurance.

Way to go health care bill.

Didn't Rush say he was leaving the country if the bill passed, or am I thinking of something else?

Then I guess the thing isn't completely useless. I might be sorta righty leanin' but I can't stand that guy.

Yes. He said he would move to Costa Rica. Where they have universal health care.

Here's the way I see it:

Dems---- Sweet! Here's a bill that we can tack every pet project we have ever wanted onto! All we need to do is pretend we won't vote for it until our demands are met. Who cares if it helps or not.....we can always spin it to look good.

GOP--- Start over! This is the worst bill in the history of mankind! The govt. will kill your grandma if she develops a hangnail. There can't be anything positive here.....those Dems are pushing it. Besides, EVERYTHING the other side does is wrong, as it isn't our idea.

American People------ screwed.......again

I'm not voting for any incumbents regardless of their political affiliation. I'm so sick of partisanship and fighting for the good of the party instead of the country I may just blow up my TV. They all deserve to be fired!

RX Reven' wrote: I heard the fine is $2,000 or 2.5% and I assume it’s which ever is higher.

$2000 is a little over three month's worth of health insurance. I make less than $20k/year.

Thanks Joel.

It can't be paid for.

President Obama’s budget proposal would create bigger deficits every year of the next decade, with the gaps totaling $1.2 trillion more than his administration projects, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said this month. Publicly held debt will zoom to $20.3 trillion, or 90 percent of gross domestic product, by 2020, the CBO forecast.

My kids get to live in a third-world country. Thanks Democrats!

In reply to John Brown:

Knurled wrote:

RX Reven' wrote: I heard the fine is $2,000 or 2.5% and I assume it’s which ever is higher.

$2000 is a little over three month's worth of health insurance. I make less than $20k/year.

The architects of this bill have got to know there are millions of folks just like you that simply can not afford health insurance. It’s not about budget reallocation to reduce non essential spending…many folks are already living as lean as is humanly possible and the 7-8 grand for insurance represents 20, 30, 40 whatever percent of their total income.

These folks have no choice but to say, I absolutely can’t afford to buy insurance and if you fine me 2 grand per year, my kids will be malnourished & we’ll be out of our home.

Something has got to give and I can’t help but suspect this is part of the fundamental plan.

(Yes, you posters that derive so much enjoyment ridiculing others as tin hat nut jobs can have a field day with what I just said…knock yourselves out)

So at some point we’ll hear…oh my gosh, more and more Americans are falling below the poverty level, something must be done…you know, for the kids.

aircooled wrote: Wait! Let me help you with some rational and logical points that need to be brought up: AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! The end is Nigh!!!! Socialism is upon us!!!! Mao will guide us!!!!! We will all be enslaved by the state!!!! Indoctrination!!!! Death Panels!!!!!! Glen Beck was right!!!!! They're coming for you organs to give them to poor people as part of the redistribution of health!!!!! The Government is now controlling ALL of the economy and whether you will live or die!!!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! - edit - I need to retract one of my statements above. I want to in no way ever imply that Glen Beck has had or ever will have any overall positive influence or constructive thing to say. I went too far, I apologize.

The term "useful idiot" comes to mind.