The swastika has other meanings too.
Nobody cares about them either.
The swastika has other meanings too.
Nobody cares about them either.
Trans_Maro wrote: The swastika has other meanings too. Nobody cares about them either.
You mean the Native American meaning of peace?
Exactly, it was a perfectly good symbol until it got associated with awful people.
Flight Service wrote:Trans_Maro wrote: The swastika has other meanings too. Nobody cares about them either.You mean the Native American meaning of peace?
Also the Indian meaning of good luck and the Asian meaning of...not much really. It was about as generic as a star or an X in Asian countries until Hitler got his hands on it.
I love how easily distracted the general public is. Let's focus on the silly flag instead of trying to fix the real issues we're claiming that the flag represents.
In reply to rotard:
Isn't that exactly how everything doesn't get done in this country?
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Bah, most wouldn't care anymore.....pirates don't identify themselves anymore.
This one would scare the poop out of Charleston though. 
nderwater wrote: If the KKK wasn't still a real deal in small towns, I might agree with you.
I respect your position, and agree with your opinion of the KKK, are you aware of the national presence of this organization?
There are 160 known, active chapters of the KKK, and a huge percentage of them are not in the South, nor in small towns.
Southern Poverty Law Center list of KKK chapters
But there are also hate groups of many other colors and flavors.
In reply to SVreX:
Another great post, sir!
I, too, am a displaced Yankee who has lived more than half my life in the South. While I never experienced outright hostility because of where I was born, it was obvious that most of those who brandished Confederate flags were/are expressing a long-held defiance that conquered people often hold. And, as always, there are some racists displaying the flag because, well, they are racists and idiots. I live just a few miles from Stone Mountain Park which is an icon of the defiance to an long-past, perceived injustice. I also revel in the irony that many (perhaps most) of the park's patrons are now people of color. Less than a mile from the park's entrance is a memorial cemetery where the remains of Confederate soldiers are interred. It has been many, many years since the battle flag was placed on the graves and flown over the grounds on Confederate Memorial Day. These are strong statements as to just how far our nation has come in terms of race relations.
Just a couple of weeks ago, I was in rural PA for my father's memorial service. On the way to the cemetery, we drove through a small neighborhood bordering the grounds and I had a WTF moment when I saw one home proudly flying a Confederate flag in front of the house. While I don't know the true motives behind those who fly that banner, I doubt they have a appreciation of southern history.
You noted how history is written by winners. That ties directly in to the fact that media driving this recent frenzy is populated by people who rarely, if ever, even stepped foot in the deep South, let alone lived there. They're only exposure to the culture is what they have read, not what they have experienced, and they quickly pass judgements based on fallacies. Screw em... Another irony is that while I have lived in the South for many years, the most blatant and egregious displays of racism I seen are those I've witnessed or observed in their own northern backyards.
Again, screw em.
nderwater wrote:Toyman01 wrote: I'm as Southern as you can get. I grew up in the South. My family still owns a Plantation on Edisto Island and has since before the war... for most of us in the South it truly is heritage. Get over it and move on.'Most of us' meaning... white plantation owners? I'm not meaning to pick on you personally, nor your family, but to emphasize that for the millions of black people living in the south, the southern battle flag is a powerful symbol representing a 'heritage' only of oppression.
That's the thing I'm curious about.
What heritage is being represented?
This morning on NPR, they interviewed a guy in college who fully supported the flag, saying that it was about a time in the south that money was flowing into the area. Which I wondered- HOW was it that the money was flowing in? Seemed like it was on the backs of slaves.
The flag represents a time where part of the country thought their financial way of life was being threatened, so they figured it was worth dying for- very much like the revolutionary war. Which is usually a laudable thing to do. But to the root of WHY their financial life was being threatened- that slavery was under attack, which the fact that it was being used was a MAJOR part of why the south was financially successful. Among all of the reasons, I'd suggest that slavery was THE MAJOR reason why the region was successful.
This flag represents that. So is that good or bad?
One other thing that is curious- like many other representative things that popped up at the time- the state usage of the flag came back in the 50's. When people were trying to become full citizens and the majority was doing a lot to prevent that. And this symbol was brought back to help prevent that, as I see it.
PC? To me, quite the opposite.
I'm fine with a person displaying it via their first amendment rights. But having a representative government fly it, yea, not so much.
BTW, NOT selling it is the first amendment rights of the stores, too.
alfadriver wrote: What heritage is being represented?
I tried to answer that on Page 1
oldsaw wrote: Just a couple of weeks ago, I was in rural PA for my father's memorial service. On the way to the cemetery, we drove through a small neighborhood bordering the grounds and I had a WTF moment when I saw one home proudly flying a Confederate flag in front of the house. While I don't know the true motives behind those who fly that banner, I doubt they have a appreciation of southern history.
Saw one on the back of a pickup in Ontario once, with local plates 
My uncle who's never left Canada didn't even recognize it at first.
In reply to Flight Service:
Good post (page1). Thanks for your thoughts.
What is your opinion of the 7 state flags which still have remnants of the Confederacy on them?
State flags that still display the Confederacy
Sorry, I can't help you with the social etiquette of DC, at least not without a lot of beer.
Hey, it is a lot cheaper to lower a flag than it is to improve mental healthcare, infrastructure and education.
I grew up in Virginia and most of the schools I went to were named after Confederate Generals or Native American Tribes. What an odd combination, schools named after oppressors and the oppressed. Anyway, when I learned about slavery and the civil war I always thought to myself, "why is our school named Robert E. Lee if he fought to keep slavery?". Isn't it like naming a school in Berlin after some Nazi hero? It just seems ass-backwards to me more than anything. I'm not offended by it at all.
And then there's the confederate flag. Some people use it to represent they country southern bumpkins but in reality it's the flag of the oppressors, slavers, and the morally wrong. Why in the world would you want to be associated with such a group is beyond me. But hell, whites kinda have no choice being associated with such words. I mean that in the least offensive way possible. The white man has used race or Christianity to conquer, kill, and destroy just about every culture they've encountered outside of Europe.
All in all though. Name E36 M3 what you want, wave whatever flag you want. I respect your right to do so and I've signed up to die for that right (I think). But, don't expect me to respect it at all.
Edit: In no way am I taking a stab at Christianity or Whites. I'm just stating facts. I may not be White or Christian but I have absolutely no issues with the idea or existence of either.
Well, it is slippery slope time, folks. First it is the battle flag, then it is anything and everything that has to do with the Confederacy and our history, good or bad. Ignorance has misappropriated the flag into a symbol of hate, more ignorance has misappropriated the entire Civil War as being about white supremacy and should be buried and forgotten.
Don't believe me?
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Committee-will-study-what-to-do-with-UT-6344985.php
One of the soldiers mentioned in the article is a direct ancestor of mine, was badly wounded in the Civil War, and was a valued citizen and philanthropist after.
This flag, which represented a treasonous insurrection by wealthy white slave owners is flying everywhere. Something should be done!
I think that "tradition" alone is a E36 M3ty reason to keep doing something. I don't care whose tradition it is.
I think people need to get over old E36 M3 and move forward, not backward. I don't care whose old E36 M3 it is.
I wonder why it's important that someone "knows their place". I don't care where they are in the hierarchy.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to stop flying a flag that has been coopted to represent hate on government property.
I think it's perfectly absurd to even discuss banning sale or display of that same flag on private property.
I think that anybody who claims the South fought primarily to resist Northern federal oppression is deluded, either by themselves or others.
SVreX wrote: I also realized that history books are written by winners of wars. My perspective as a Northerner was uniquely molded by a Northern perspective, captured in the dominant history books and taught in the government run schools. And some of what I had learned was wrong.
I can vouch for how very true this is, having grown up in NJ and moved to VA as a young adult.
In response to SVREX: very eloquent observations.
The battle flag on the state house grounds is going to come down. It will not change one damn thing in the grand scheme of things. Then they will blame everything on the statues, the road names, building names (Tillman Hall at Clemson University), etc, etc and want them removed as well. Don't bother to look inside, easier to blame something or someone else.
I agree the flag should not have been on the state house grounds. It was put on the capital dome in 1961 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the start of the Civil War. It was supposed to come down in 1965, to celebrate the end. This was all done during the administration of Democrats, who dominated this state damn near forever. It was removed from the dome in 2000 and put behind a statue of Wade Hampton by a compromise with black legislators and I believe the NAACP.
yupididit wrote: The white man has used race or Christianity to conquer, kill, and destroy just about every culture they've encountered outside of Europe.
Unnecessary comment, especially since so many other colors, religions, and belief systems have done it too.
GameboyRMH wrote:oldsaw wrote: Just a couple of weeks ago, I was in rural PA for my father's memorial service. On the way to the cemetery, we drove through a small neighborhood bordering the grounds and I had a WTF moment when I saw one home proudly flying a Confederate flag in front of the house. While I don't know the true motives behind those who fly that banner, I doubt they have a appreciation of southern history.Saw one on the back of a pickup in Ontario once, with local plates
Come to Alberta, you see the rig rocketeers run these all the time on their brodozers with the tow mirrors out. To me that flag represents slavery and oppression so I would not fly that that flag. Should it be completely taken out of history, absolutely not, its an intrinsic part of American history and it needs to exist.....I mean, what are you going to paint on the top of your General Lee replica, a peace sign 
GameboyRMH wrote:Woody wrote: What about the atrocities represented by this flag? In fact, there is nothing on this one that *doesn't* imply death. If we're going to start banning the sale of flags, we need to start here.Nobody's banning the sale of it, just like the confederate/rebel flag. Try flying that on a ship and see what happens though
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/major-american-companies-ban-sales-of-racist-confederate-flag-amid-protests/story-fnda1bsz-1227412156822
SVreX wrote: In reply to Flight Service: Good post (page1). Thanks for your thoughts. What is your opinion of the 7 state flags which still have remnants of the Confederacy on them? State flags that still display the Confederacy Sorry, I can't help you with the social etiquette of DC, at least not without a lot of beer.
That is an interesting one as it is trying to go back to the symbolism that I referenced. The most interesting one on that I list I thought was Tennessee. I never thought about that one. The rest are truly out of the Confederacy. I doubt anything will happen as those are functioning and ratified representation of a recognized government. The people who live there are going to have to want to change those flags and I am not sure that will happen. Removing the symbols are a good step, but far from fixing the problem. What I find amusing about those particular flag debates is the First Flag of the Confederacy was extremely similar to the US flag of the day, (and in battle was confusing and the reason it was changed, although it seems it wasn't designed with the US flag in mind.)
I just hope it goes peaceful.
Lots of insight from flight service. I'm a southerner transplanted to the north. For some places it could take generations for a family to be accepted in the south. There's a saying about southern hospitality - he smiles from the teeth out.
The Chinese also struggle with the issue of integrating conquered people into their culture.
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