What's next? Incandescent-CF-LED-??

I'm about to go LED in my garage. I have 8 T8 fixtures with electronic ballasts that are just killing bulbs. The bulbs are supposed to last ~27 years at 3 hours a day.

They are on for an average of like 1 hour a day and I'm on year 3. About 1/3rd of them have blown at this point :( The garage doesn't get very cold. Minimum of like 50F (measured the other day when it got down to 8 degrees here... very far below normal)

The efficiency numbers of the replacement bulbs are slightly higher than fluorescent in Lumens/Watt, but the light output is more direct making them appear to be much more efficient from what I understand.

I have the old fluro tubes in my garage - T12? Last year I threw a bunch of LED fixtures from Sam's Club above the workbenches and man, do they light up nicely. Most of the T12s are still in place, but they'll get replaced as they fail.

You mean the 8-footers? I've got a bunch of those. Wonder if these are any good?

https://www.amazon.com/Foot-Replacement-Bulb-Fluorescent-Fixtures/dp/B00DY8IAH0

Different color temps can play havoc on your eyes. Right now, my house is a color-cacophony of incandescent, CFL and LED fixtures and the temps are all over the place as a result.

When selecting lighting fixtures for clients, we generally specify 3500K for the color temp. When I remodel my house, that's probably what I'll look for. Unfortunately, in order to get a color temp options in fixtures, you may have to spend real money at a lighting store vs. a home center.

It's funny... despite being a LEED certified HVAC engineer, my ex- had me install about two dozen halogen fixtures in the remodeled portion of her house. Granted, this was 4 years ago when LED fixtures were just starting to get cheaper. They are almost all on occupancy sensors, so the meter doesn't spin too bad.

I'm replacing a lot of CFL's in my new house with LED bulbs. The primary energy burner in the house is the incandescent BR30 bulbs in the can lights. We've got about 12 of those total and they are always on. Replacing them with LEDs will lead to significant power savings.

I love lights. I'm a big fan of bright working surfaces in the kitchen and bathroom. I love my shower to feel like a beach in summer, so I've got a 85 watt 2700k LED above it.

What I'd like to do is find outdoor fixtures with LED lights in them. I've got fixtures both out front and in the back of the house that I like using, but with lights small enough to fit inside the produce no light, and with LED bulbs in them they aren't very weatherproof.

Anyone see tasteful (not flood or security) outdoor lighting that is weatherproof and bright? I want something that throws enough to light up my patio and driveway.

For me it isn't so much the color temperature. I have tried a lot of different ranges. Something about the light is just harsh. If I had to come up with a word for it I would guess (most likely incorrectly) "frequency" ? Like a flicker that I can't actually witness, but I can feel. I don't know. Hard to explain

The light is intense and fatiguing to my eyes no matter the color temperature. I am however switching over to it in hopes I will eventually adapt.

Jumper K. Balls wrote: For me it isn't so much the color temperature. I have tried a lot of different ranges. Something about the light is just harsh. If I had to come up with a word for it I would guess (most likely incorrectly) "frequency" ? Like a flicker that I can't actually witness, but I can feel. I don't know. Hard to explain

PWM-controlled LED lights can flicker so fast that you can barely see it, so it's not in your head, I know exactly what you're talking about. Constant-power LED lights don't have this flicker, but also can't be dimmed properly.

Woah! I guessed correctly

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/jul/characterizing-and-minimizing-led-flicker-in-lighting-applications

Link said: The effect of flicker According to studies about 1 in 4,000 people are highly susceptible to flashing lights cycling in the 3 to 70 Hz range. Such obvious flickering can trigger ailments as serious as epileptic seizures. Less well known is the fact that long-term exposure to higher frequency (unintentional) flickering (in the 70 to 160 Hz range) can also cause malaise, headaches, and visual impairment. Unfortunately, unless a person is in natural daylight, they are likely to be exposed to this higher frequency flickering, because all mains-powered light sources, whether incandescent, halogen, fluorescent or LED, are subject to flickering. The source is the AC component of the power supply and the frequency of the flickering is typically either equal to the mains frequency (usually 50 or 60 Hz) or double the mains frequency. Tests show that humans find it difficult to directly sense light flickering at these higher frequencies, but that seems to hardly matter. Scientists have conducted research that indicates the human retina is able to resolve light flickering at 100 to 150 Hz, even if the subject is not aware of it, leading to the conclusion that the brain may well be reacting. The insidious effects of this so-called imperceptible flickering in the 100 to 150 Hz range are not just a function of frequency; physical and physiological factors also play a big part. For example, bright light is worse than dim, and the difference between “bright” and “dark” parts of the lighting pattern are important (a light that goes completely dark during the “off” part of the cycle is worse than one which only partially dims). Red light and alternating red and blue can be particularly troublesome, and the position of the light source on the retina is important, as light sensed by the center is worse than that falling on the periphery. Some researchers even claim the retina can sense flickering up to 200 Hz, but tests have shown that above 160 Hz the health effects of flickering are negligible.¹

And also

Link said: This is because LEDs react particularly quickly to current variations. At 120 Hz, both the LED itself and its white-light-emitting phosphor have plenty of time to completely stop producing photons during the “off” part of the waveform. In contrast, conventional light sources, particularly incandescent and halogen types, have “inertia”. This means that even during the “off” part of the cycle, they still emit some photons.

So yeah. That would be my issue.

pheller wrote: Anyone see tasteful (not flood or security) outdoor lighting that is weatherproof and bright? I want something that throws enough to light up my patio and driveway.

You can go to Home Depot or Lowes' websites and filter your lighting search by bulb type and indoor/outdoor. So, search outdoor fixtures with LED bulb type and you'll get tons of options. A lot more than what your local store carries probably. A few of the nice ones have motion sensing, timers, and dawn/dusk light sensors.

Jumper K. Balls wrote: And also

Link said: This is because LEDs react particularly quickly to current variations. At 120 Hz, both the LED itself and its white-light-emitting phosphor have plenty of time to completely stop producing photons during the “off” part of the waveform. In contrast, conventional light sources, particularly incandescent and halogen types, have “inertia”. This means that even during the “off” part of the cycle, they still emit some photons.

So yeah. That would be my issue.

Some capacitors in the power supply would fix this.

In reply to Jumper K. Balls:

I have never heard of that, and am thankful that I don't suffer from that... with the grow lights and all.

(on that note- they are really obvious, in my sun room)

I wish that LED dimmer switches were cheaper. I just moved into a rental home and the living room area is lit with six canned flood lights on tracks. When I first got there the landlord had thrown random bulbs in a few of the cans; most were 75W halogens but there were a couple 100 watt A19 incandescent's that would get the cans hot enough to create a overheated plastic smell. I pulled all those and got some 50 watt halogen floods so I wouldn't have to pull the dimmer switches. I'm happy with the light level available but I'd be much happier with some ~8W LED floods instead.

Overall I've been really happy with 3000k LED bulbs from the big box stores. Still waiting on T8 style LED tubes to come down in price for the garage.

Thread drift alert!

Ian F wrote: They are almost all on occupancy sensors, so the meter doesn't spin too bad.

This is something we've done in our house. I have sensors on quite a few lights. It saves some money, sure, but it's also really, really convenient. If I come into the house through the garage with my hands full, the lights will come on. If I go out into the (windowless) garage, the lights will come on. Start walking down the stairs at night, the lights will come on. Even the fan in the bedroom has a soft LED that can be motion sensitive. Every outdoors light is on a sensor because it's less annoying to the neighbors and it's better security than dusk-till-dawn. It's all the home automation I need

alfadriver wrote: I have never heard of that, and am thankful that I don't suffer from that... with the grow lights and all.

Trying to cash in on legal weed, huh?

1988RedT2 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I have never heard of that, and am thankful that I don't suffer from that... with the grow lights and all.

Trying to cash in on legal weed, huh?

Well, it is kind of legal here in Michigan.

Farther tangent- when I've been doing research on all the different versions of hydroponics, the gross majority of the people doing it and doing "research" are growing weed. There are some people out there who are growing enough in a small back yard to make some good money selling produce. They started with a HF greenhouse. Really cool- that's what's egging me on.

I don't think I've replaced an LED bulb yet. I started buying them one at a time as CFL bulbs went out in the house when they were something like $12 each. I'm betting the next thing will be fixtures that don't have replaceable bulbs. People will get sick of the fixture long before anything burns out.

I'm digging the LED cans I have around the perimeter of the garage. Wish LED's in the dual-tube format had gotten cheaper in time to do more of them instead of the fluorescents I got. That said, pretty happy overall. Pleasantly surprised by the warmth of the LEDs, and I'm pleased that my eyes are (or, uh, my brain is) lo-fi enough not to notice the noise...

Had really mediocre luck with CFLs for life. Especially on the porch. And the cold performance and slow warmup were annoying, too. I couldn't argue with the efficiency, but with LEDs where they are now, I expect never to buy a CFL again.

Jumper K. Balls wrote: For me it isn't so much the color temperature. I have tried a lot of different ranges. Something about the light is just harsh. If I had to come up with a word for it I would guess (most likely incorrectly) "frequency" ? Like a flicker that I can't actually witness, but I can feel. I don't know. Hard to explain The light is intense and fatiguing to my eyes no matter the color temperature. I am however switching over to it in hopes I will eventually adapt.

You are not alone. I too feel the frequency. It makes my eyes fatigue such that I cannot focus. So, I am the weirdo that had to have all the fluorescent lights removed from my new to me office. I brought in lamps with incandescent bulbs. Some co-workers think I have a thing for lamps. Some LEDs bother me some don't, I am not sure what makes the difference. Talking to a Philips rep on a job he suggested it might be the spectrum of light and the diffusion system in the bulb that determines what is happening to me. I hope that the ones that don't bother me survive like VHS and the other versions go like beta and laser disks.

In reply to Advan046:

Taking your tangent- are you also more sensitive to computer and tablet screens? We are all told that they can cause problems before sleep, but I can only imagine how much worse it can be if you actually can see the flicker.

Sounds really irritating.

In reply to alfadriver:

Actually computer and tablet screens don't give me the same sensation as the fluorescent light sources. And the feeling from LEDs is different from the fluorescent lights.

I had a long talk about this topic once with someone else that felt the same about LEDs but didn't have an issue with fluorescent light. She and I realized that we treat LED light sources like the sun. We tend to use anything to block it directly from our eyesight whether it be looking away, using a hand or hat, or whatever. It led me to realize that my issue with fluorescent generated light is that it doesn't matter if it is direct or indirect, I still feel weird after a while with them. But if I have an incandescent light source of enough lumens then I am ok. I am 100% certain it has to do with the frequency somehow tricking my brain to try and refocus 120 times a second or some regular frequency and thus I get eyestrain and then my eyes and brain tire out.

Back on topic, I did hear about the use of nanotechnology to generate light through excitation rather than just running A/C current. They suspend graphite in a special plastic then push energy through the composite. Push basically a static charge through a loose collection of them is how I gather it works. Then the graphite tubes or spheres generate light. The theory is that for instance any surface can be molded with this composite and then if they can control the break point of when the graphite lights versus doesn't you could have dynamic lighting. So imagine a strip of plastic in your ceiling plus sensors embeded or separately mounted and the light follows you down the hall.

Has anybody seen decently quality occupancy switches for cheap?

When I browse ebay for LED bulbs the prices are ridiculously low, but I am bit nervous about installing a switch from China that cost $1.

Then spend $20-30 and get a good one - I use Lutrons. You only do it once, and you'll forget in two weeks that you spent the money.

Or you participate in the race to the bottom, buy the cheapest crap you can and then complain that nothing's made as well as it used to be.

mazdeuce wrote: ... I'm betting the next thing will be fixtures that don't have replaceable bulbs. People will get sick of the fixture long before anything burns out.

I've got two of those in my home now. They're... okay but really I think they're an economy move. The ones I have (I didn't buy or install them, they were done after I moved into the rental) have an LED array and driver that isn't dimmable. You also lose the ability to change the color temperature. They came in a two-pack like this for $45; https://www.lowes.com/pd/Project-Source-2-Pack-11-in-W-Brushed-Nickel-Integrated-Flush-Mount-Light/999926358

I prefer to have A19 sockets in something like that so I can change the bulbs to whatever I want. But for a cheap landlord that needs to lighting up fast and he doesn't really care what the tenant thinks? Perfect solution.

KyAllroad wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Hmm, one of law enforcements' tools for years was to watch electric usage and IR signatures of houses to spot the places growing pot under grow lights. I wonder if there will be a (already occurred? I don't keep up) growth in residential "agriculture".

Thermographic trivia - One of the big court cases on law enforcement use of imagers was Kyllo vs United States. Kyllo was growing something sold by the kilo in his attic, on Rhododendron Drive. I kid you not.

Oh, the Supreme Court said using the imager was a search in itself. Scalia wrote the majority opinion.

Well, I thought it was interesting.

We now return you to your CFL discussion.

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