Where is the Fit Si?

Well there is this:

http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/hpd.aspx

187hp w/supercharger, Limited slip diff, sport suspension, etc.

I'm sure the price will kill it though.

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

Yeah...and in 20 years, Hyundai will finally come out with something that will rival the '91 NSX.

Slippery wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

explain. Sure they didn't invent the 4 cycle engine but they made it reliable at crazy high RPM. lots of innovation there.

I agree with Fueled by Caffeine. They always innovated and did their own thing, rarely tried to copy. From CVCC to VTEC on the NSX, to the SH diff. on the last gen Prelude. I miss the late 80s through 90s Honda. Its probably one of the reasons why I still keep my S2000 and have not sold it, its one of their last greatest cars.

Not to mention that Hyundai got to where it is by blatently copying Honda.

JFX001 wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

Yeah...and in 20 years, Hyundai will finally come out with something that will rival the '91 NSX.

They have. It's been available since 2012.

In reply to calteg:

Uh, care to enlighten us about the high revving, superior handling, mid-engine supercar that Hyundai has been offering since 2012?

bravenrace wrote: In reply to calteg: Uh, care to enlighten us about the high revving, superior handling, mid-engine supercar that Hyundai has been offering since 2012?

Don't forget all aluminum body as well.

In reply to Slippery:

I knew I forgot something.

bravenrace wrote:

Slippery wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

explain. Sure they didn't invent the 4 cycle engine but they made it reliable at crazy high RPM. lots of innovation there.

I agree with Fueled by Caffeine. They always innovated and did their own thing, rarely tried to copy. From CVCC to VTEC on the NSX, to the SH diff. on the last gen Prelude. I miss the late 80s through 90s Honda. Its probably one of the reasons why I still keep my S2000 and have not sold it, its one of their last greatest cars.

Not to mention that Hyundai got to where it is by blatently copying Honda.

Actually it "blatantly copied" mitsu for many of it's early years.... which explains the terrible quality. They actually pushed more towards the Toyota model of good cars that were bland and unoffensive.

But this has nothing to do with Honda's reluctance to do anything "outside the box".

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

explain. Sure they didn't invent the 4 cycle engine but they made it reliable at crazy high RPM. lots of innovation there.

Examples: Direct Injection. They're just now adding this old news tech to their lineup when GM and even the Koreans have been using it for over a generation of vehicles.

Hybrids. They let Toyota be the whipping boy, then followed suit but never truly committed to the idea.

High RPM 4-cyls. Not the first there either. Yes, Vtec was novel/new and interesting etc and that has worked for them.

THe NSX, though an amazing feat of engineering when it was introduced in 1989, it still had a lot of old parts bin stuff in place. Then they rode that horse into the ground never bothering to update it to the new century and then claimed "look, no one buys it anymore, so we should just get ridof it." S2K was the same. Those are both cars that, to me, scream "What could have been?" if they'd kept developing and not riding it into the ground.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to calteg: Uh, care to enlighten us about the high revving, superior handling, mid-engine supercar that Hyundai has been offering since 2012?

Why the Hyundai hate today? Someone piss in your wheaties?

In reply to Bobzilla:

Somebody has to offset your Honda hate. Besides, that statement wasn't Hyundai hate anyway. I'm just wondering what vehicle he is talking about.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, I worked for a professional mechanics tool company. Every year we went to Detroit for what was called Tech Week. We went to seminars by all the big three, and they would tell us what was coming up so we could develop any needed specialty tools. As part of this we went to the GM Warren proving grounds. I'm not picking on GM here, as we didn't go to the Ford or Chrysler proving grounds, so I can't speak about them. But at GM, there were literally more Honda's there than GM cars. And there weren't any Toyota's or Nissans, or any other Asian brands. Only Honda's, and there were a lot of them. There were Honda's out on the test track, disassembled in the shops, and many just sitting in the staging lot.
I wonder why GM was working so hard to benchmark a car company that doesn't innovate?

because by that point, Honda's quality was lightyears ahead of any domestic car maker. I guess you could say they "innovated quality control" and I would agree with that. Unfortunately in the last 10 years they've let that slip way too much. Gm's "quality" in the late 80's was.... umm.... missing. Like, not even there. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

But hey, at least Honda's not Toyota.

I don't have any (re-read that, ANY) "honda hate". I do have "honda disappointment" because I see daily what they're currently doing and it makes me sad. They have such great potential... but I don't see their upper management fixing that anytime soon.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to calteg: Uh, care to enlighten us about the high revving, superior handling, mid-engine supercar that Hyundai has been offering since 2012?

1991 Acura NSX Curb Weight: 3,010lbs HP: 270 TQ: 210 Forward gears: 5

2012 Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6

Curb Weight: 3,350

HP: 306

TQ: 266

Forward gears: 6

You said "rival" not "copy." Now quit being obtuse.

Same tires, same driver, the Genesis listed above will hang with an NSX on track, it'll cost less, and still have a warranty.

Not that a Genesis is in any way in the same category as an NSX (), but what's your reference for the Genesis hanging with the NSX on a track?

I don't see why it can't. Remember, the original NSX was rolling 205/50/15 front and 225/50/16 rear tires for it's 3klbs plus driver and smallish brakes for track work. The Genesis is rolling 225/245's with 14" brembo's and 20 years of suspension design updates. Also, it picked up another 45hp in 2013 with the DI engine.

Huh.... apparently it can. http://fastestlaps.com/cars/hyundai_genesis_coupe_38_track.html http://fastestlaps.com/cars/honda_nsx_30_1991.html

Both cars on Hockenheim Short, NSX 1:18.77 Gen Coupe (underpowered version) 1:16.30. Who knew?

Impressive, although it's still over 20 years later, and in no way does a Genesis "rival" an NSX overall.
I don't know how a Genesis managed to be 2 seconds faster than an NSX on that circuit, but they were dead even at willow springs.

Datsun310Guy wrote: In reply to Jarod: x2 As I drive my 2011 Accord 5-speed I think this all the time. How about a light weight Accord Si with more 4-cylinder hp and a better suspension and exhaust.

Mazda 6?

bravenrace wrote: Impressive, but it's still over 20 years later. And in no way does a Genesis "rival" an NSX overall.

I agree. It's a 4-seat Grand Touring Coupe that outperforms Honda's premier 2-seat Sports car. The PROBLEM is that Honda didn't change anything in 15 years to keep up with everyone else.

A true "rival" would be the 1997 C5 Corvette. In 1996, it was outperforming the NSX, and then in 2000 the Zo6 came out and rewrote the book on affordable sports cars that are in supercar territory.

Bobzilla wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Honda's never really been a leader in bringing new tech to market. They've always been more of a "lets LET someone else figure it out and then after the bugs are gone we'll do it too." type of car company.

explain. Sure they didn't invent the 4 cycle engine but they made it reliable at crazy high RPM. lots of innovation there.

Examples: Direct Injection. They're just now adding this old news tech to their lineup when GM and even the Koreans have been using it for over a generation of vehicles. Hybrids. They let Toyota be the whipping boy, then followed suit but never truly committed to the idea. High RPM 4-cyls. Not the first there either. Yes, Vtec was novel/new and interesting etc and that has worked for them. THe NSX, though an amazing feat of engineering when it was introduced in 1989, it still had a lot of old parts bin stuff in place. Then they rode that horse into the ground never bothering to update it to the new century and then claimed "look, no one buys it anymore, so we should just get ridof it." S2K was the same. Those are both cars that, to me, scream "What could have been?" if they'd kept developing and not riding it into the ground.

Bob, I get what you are saying. But your argument is tantamount to.. "weber grills didn't invent Barbequing so obviously they are moron's who can't engineer themselves out of a paper bag" It just dosen't work. Please go back to the drawing board, develop new logic and try again.

All of the times on that site are heavily dependent on conditions and drivers. It's certainly not valid for accurate comparisons. I was looking at the Genesis times and they were better than a lot of cars it shouldn't be. This a car that most consider a non-player in the handling department.

In reply to Bobzilla:

I don't know all the reasons Honda didn't continue to develop the NSX, but I do know that it wasn't because they didn't know how. Sometimes business decisions are made that effect the evolution of a vehicle.
Listen, if you read any of the industry publications you'd know that Honda is widely considered a top innovator in the industry. I'm not thrilled with their current lineup of vehicles either, but to say they have never innovated is just plain wrong. What they are is a conservative company. The CRX was never intended to be anything more than a commuter car, but it was so good that racer's picked up on it. The NSX was never intended to be a competitor to the likes of Ferrari, but it was so good that in many ways it was. The CVCC engine was so good that Honda was able to go without a CAT for much longer than anyone else. VTEC? many companies still don't have electronic lift control. Everyone belly-aches about Honda moving away from double A-arms on the Civic, but don't consider that in the years it had that feature, most if not all of it's competitors didn't. Somebody please stop me! I have work to do!
I've driven both a Genesis and an NSX. For the same price I'd take a 20 something year old NSX over a new Genesis hands down, despite what the numbers say.

Bobzilla wrote: I agree. It's a 4-seat Grand Touring Coupe that outperforms Honda's premier 2-seat Sports car.

Yeah, 22 years later. I've read an article, I think in GRM, where a Honda Odyssey beat an old Porsche 911 too. Big deal.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Bob, I get what you are saying. But your argument is tantamount to.. "weber grills didn't invent Barbequing so obviously they are moron's who can't engineer themselves out of a paper bag" It just dosen't work. Please go back to the drawing board, develop new logic and try again.

Not sure why you two are getting so defensive. I have not said that Honda has never developed anything. I'm not saying their engineers suck. I'm saying their corporate management sucks and they have been , and continue to, make poor decisions in regards to their product line.

E36 M3, if the ricer tax wasn't so bad, I'd have put the wife in a Civic DX years ago. But for the same year/miles, a civic will run twice the cost as the cheapo Korean cars we've bought and will require the same kinds of maintenance and upkeep and rust just as fast. For a beater you're going to run into the gound driving 75-100 miles a day, there's no point in spending twice the amount.