Why a restoration costs as much as it does...

Commenting on the BAT thread last week and experiencing more misery this week has prompted me to start this thread as a bit of a journal, so folks get to see what really goes on during a restoration to drive the costs through the roof.

Today I had to go to the upholstery shop which is about an hour drive away from us. We've got a 1967 Beaumont (That's a Chevelle with lumberjack boots) having an interior being replaced and I had to install new power window mechanisms, a new heater core and replace the convertible top hydraulic system.

I got the hydraulics installed and bled, and was hooking the cylinders to the top when I noticed  a fitting was leaking. I snugged it up with a wrench and it cocked over a little like it was cross threaded. Took everything apart, threads looked good, screw it back together and it goes together with fingers ok but as soon as you tighten it, the fitting cocks over.

After some disassembly and inspection, I discovered that the threads are fine in both fittings and ports but the ports in the cylinders are just a little too big and the threads won't hold. 

Good ol' offshore manufacturing strikes again.

Fortunately, due to some scheduling changes, the boss was bringing another car out that afternoon and managed to track down a new set of cylinders and lines and bring them with him. We managed to tag-team the install and get everything working so the guys at the upholstery shop could go home for the night.

The supplier of the defective parts says it's not their fault and won't cover the time to swap the cylinders and it's going to be a fight to get them to take them back even though we've had to do the job twice.

As someone who has built $200k+ cars, I completely understand the pain.  I see really nice cars posted for sale often on Facebook in the $50-100k range and people just bash it because they don't understand what is truly involved.  Less than $75k at a legitimate shop is a budget build.  Half of that cost would just be a decent(not great) paint job.

A friend decided to sell off the 67 Camaro SS convertible that he bought cheap rather than spend 75k to get a 45k car. 

I'd love to do high end fabrication at my shop, but you need a special kind of customer to pony up the dough to make it a workable situation, and I don't know enough of them.

Time, time and more time.  On top of skill, knowledge and a large helping of patience. 

When I tell people that it will take 1000 plus hours to do a "restoration" of their baby, they look at me like I am crazy and their next words tend to be "But the car is not worth anywhere near that!" 

Having done a few ground up projects with people, and saved them a metric merde-ton of $$$, I have decided that I am going to restrict myself to helping with the tinwork. Not going to get involved with anything that propels the car. It is not that I cant do the mechanical, it is more a case of every single part that you buy for classic cars is made of putain de merde ( pardon my french).  For a year after building one of these cars, life revolves around non paid trips to the clients house to fix some part that has failed, or stick handling a warranty transaction between a supplier for stuff like engines or gearboxes that were done by third parties that you helped select.  And we have not even touched on lingering perpetual liability.  This all falls under the life-lesson of "No good deed ever goes unpunished". 

To address all of the above pitfalls, a person would need to charge clients over $100/hour. I think this whole subject was well covered by Carl Heideman of Eclectic Motors in one of their GRM articles about why it cost 100k to restore your 15k MGB 

And don't get me started on the scam-artist that is the "Profesional Classic Car Apraiser".

I do restoration work for myself because it is a good distraction from life.  But even then, some projects become too much and linger on for way too long.  I can't imagine ever doing a restoration for money even if a customer hands me a bag full of money up front.  The pressure of staying on some sort of schedule would drive me nuts.  Kudos to those that can.

NOHOME said:

When I tell people that it will take 1000 plus hours to do a "restoration" of their baby, they look at me like I am crazy and their next words tend to be "But the car is not worth anywhere near that!" 

Then the car isn't their baby.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

As someone who ran an R&D department and had to vet project proposals on a constant basis, my favourite expression was "Let me kill your cute little puppy before we have to feed it". 

The parts supply is a real problem.

OTOH, what I have decided for my latest project is to embrace the Roadkill and ignore the cosmetics as much as possible. Clean and tight, but no thick clear coat, hours spent straightening panels or trying to find rust-free original parts. Nope, don't care. I want a car to drive, not to wipe with a diaper. This has been a very difficult thing to embrace as I grew up in a time when, if it wasn't AACA Senior material, it wasn't worthy.

Doing a proper restoration is a real commitment and has my full respect. I think too many folks dive into the idea that a full blown, return-to-factory or better condition is the only way to enjoy the car hobby. With the advent of Roadkill and umpteen YouTube channels showing how much fun one can have with a slightly ratty car I see the pendulum swinging a bit. This allows people who aren't fully skilled or have a trust fund to participate and not be ridiculed.

In reply to ddavidv :

As you allude to, until you have tried to do a full resto, it is impossible to comprehend the amount of time and $$$ it takes.  The other thing that has not been mentioned is it also takes the right family support since, like it or not, they are going to be involved due to your involvement.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

In addition to the time you have to compensate your employees enough for their expertise that they don't leave. Otherwise you're retraining which takes time, time and more time; and in the meantime craftsmanship likely suffers as there's a learning curve associated with high level body and trim restoration, let alone mechanical. 

In reply to ddavidv :

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again.  Roadkill and this forum have been a game changer for me.  

Only thing holding me back right now is funds.

It's interesting because I also embrace the roadkill, driving and safeish is a good goal to start with. Even with that folks underestimate the time and cost it takes. When I tackled my first project car my mom asked me if it was worth the time and money and I laughed and said there aren't a lot of cars that it is worth the money to fix up and certainly none of the cars I own are worth it, but I don't do this because it is worth it. 

its hard to get paid for all the hours you have involved in a full restoration , 

there are tons of hours  not directly involved  that will never get paid ,  

Doing a 90% car is X numbers of hours , getting it to show quality is 2x-3x more .

I build to 80% , nice but not overdone......

I guess I look upon it as a hobby and not a profession.

Work on my own car. Get together with some guys in the neighborhood who work on their cars. Have a few beers while you work. No pressure to finish at a certain time.

Don't keep track of receipts or time wasted. I did a full rebuild on the suspension of my Dodge Tioga II motorhome. Spent about three months under the front end of the thing with big wrenches tools I had to buy for this project because I had never needed them to work on the Miata or the Porsche. Had a truck suspension company do custom back springs. Had another guy make a custom trailer hitch because nobody makes Class 3 hitches for small motorhomes and the motorhome manufacturer actually cuts away what you would attach any kind of trailer hitch to if it was still the one ton van it started out as. Hung out at the guy's shop and had a beer while he worked. Admired his collection of old Mopars. Spend $10,000 on something that if you park it overnight at Wal Mart they will chase you off thinking you are homeless. Ever look at how the rear suspension sags on most of the motorhomes parked next to the homeless camps. Mine doesn't. Nobody cares but me. I still probably spend less on my hobby than some golfers and guys who fly private planes do.

If you aren't going do most of it yourself it would probably be cheaper to go to the dealer and buy a new one.

Back in the 1950s guys built hot rods in their backyard. There were no restoration shops or offshore manufactures back then. You took what you could find at the wrecking yard and made it fit. Now it's all about how much money you can piss away or even how much you can finance. Make money building parts in China for cars made in America 50 years ago? Strange how this hobby has changed so much in about 60 years. Maybe when they blow the economy up again the hobby will go back to it's roots. 

Now get off my lawn.

In reply to NOHOME :

I get that.  I'd love to paint my corrado a totally different color.  I know that's a ton of work as it involves painting the jambs and the engine bay etc.  My body shop gave me a quote to do it, warning me that they generally don't do color changes on cars worth less than 6 figures.

Yep, the cost to paint it was more than what I paid for the car.  So as much as I'd love to do it, I can't justify it...

There is definitely a quality problem with so many so-called "restoration parts".  A good percentage of it is junk.  And NOS parts are crazy expensive. 

There is some good stuff being made.  I just installed some Lokar parts in the Nova--throttle pedal and linkage, kickdown cable and matching brake pedal cover--good quality stuff, but adds up to a cool 500 dollars.  Yay!

Halfway through my day today. 

Yesterday I watched a glass guy put a new windshield in a Dodge Ram while I worked on the Beaumont. It took him less than two hours.

I've got the glass out of the E-type I'm working on and getting ready to put the new windscreen in. The seal is a bit small so it's being stretched a little to fit the opening better.

Customer had a "while you're in there" request to repair the loose vinyl on the dash pad. The dash is out and it's all coming loose. I checked around and Moss sells a new pad for $200. Looks like a deal but I'm not 100% sure I want to use it so I make a couple phone calls.

Turns out the quality is poor, the fit is bad and I have to cut holes and install the defrost ducts myself. This means it will take just as much, if not more time to make the new, poor fitting dash fit as it will to glue the old one back together.

Customer wants me to re-use his dash.

I see this a lot in my local Triumph club.  The club director works as the shop manager at a fairly high-end restoration and repair shop in eastern PA.  We had a tour of the shop over the weekend. Quite a few of the cars getting worked on were "labors of love" and would have far more money invested into them than their actual value.  One member has more money than she ever wants to think about invested into her square tail Spitfire.  Hell, even my own Spitfire will be getting a new engine that cost almost as much as I paid for the entire car.  My long-term Volvo 1800ES project will end up costing more than its worth even with me doing most of the work myself. 

But I didn't buy the cars as investments.  They are just cars to be used (eventually...) and enjoyed.  It was why I had to reluctantly part ways with my 2003 TDI wagon. I just didn't see a future where I was going to use and enjoy that car. 

The quality of classic car parts is definitely an issue.  Tim has asked for topics to discuss when he attends some type of vendor conference and I've mentioned a couple of times how quality is a big issue.  But we in the LBC world are so used to parts being cheap, we are sometimes reluctant to pay for quality parts.  Personally, I am reaching that point where I am absolutely willing to pay more for a part that I can KNOW will fit correctly and last for a reasonable service life.

californiamilleghia said:

Doing a 90% car is X numbers of hours , getting it to show quality is 2x-3x more .

Reminds me of my favorite programming truism:
The first 90% takes 90% of the time, the last 10% takes the other 90%.

Honsch said:

californiamilleghia said:

Doing a 90% car is X numbers of hours , getting it to show quality is 2x-3x more .

Reminds me of my favorite programming truism:
The first 90% takes 90% of the time, the last 10% takes the other 90%.

Yep, and like with project cars, in the end everybody is surprised that it kinda sorta somehow works.

Don't ask me how many hours it took to get SanFord from here.

To here.

There is another 1000 plus hours to go that I'm having a hard time getting motivated for. I can't even imagine doing an actual restoration. 

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Can we see more in this bus?

I drive my cars, to that end I can live with them and keep them clean, getting them detailed as a extravagance that I willing pay to have done.  I don't take on a car that needs body work or paint.  I have a rust free 1960 MGA Coupe that I found in a garage in Barstow CA will not be a project that I will not take on because the 1970 Datsun Roadster that I am doing the same level of mechanical repair required, will clean up to a much higher level.

No, it is not perfect but again not doing the body or paint work is a truly "win/win".  Knowing that I do not have to spring for paint supplies is a money saver.

Honsch said:

Reminds me of my favorite programming truism:
The first 90% takes 90% of the time, the last 10% takes the other 90%.

This is one of my favorites. So applicable, so true.

On the general topic, paint hurts. It's so much of an expense, so much of the perception of a car, and so little of the driving experience. Hanging around Trent's shop I saw stuff that raised my expectations, and I don't think I can forget, though I'm not sure I even would've really noticed the differences a few years ago.

+1 to Ian F's request to talk about parts quality. It's a thing, and it's problematic. Given how much better cheap tools have gotten in the last decade or two, I'm more or less over the notion that cheap stuff can't be produced well. However, I'm just as convinced that if it takes paying more to get better parts made, it'll be worth it. I'm sure it's hard to invest in revisiting the production process for a part that's been in production (badly) for ten years, and I certainly recognize the difference in scale to make back investment between MGB bits and 3/8" ratchets... There's just been so much progress in manufacturing.