Wifi repeater gurus... need some long range gain

Instead of reviving a zombie thread with old ideas, I wanted to revisit my need for a wifi repeater.

Up here at the lake, there is a "nano" booster at the lodge.  The lodge is about 1000' away and there are a lot of trees and a small hill between my trailer and the broadcaster.  I bought a cheap repeater (internal antenna) but the problem is that it doesn't receive enough signal to reliably get an IP.  I maybe get lucky once or twice a day and my phone goes nuts with notifications and I scramble to reply to emails while I have a blip of connection.

I have an old satellite dish and wanted some ideas.  I have seen some where you just use a USB wifi dongle and put it in the LNB, but that would only work for one device plugged into the USB, unless I could plug the USB into a wireless router and get it that way.  I want to have Tx and Rx back to the Nano and a wifi broadcast for our few campsites.  My current extender is a Netgear (label came off so I can't tell you the model) with just network ports on the back, no USB.

I have a good Netgear N router at home which I could use.

I tried some homebrew ideas like setting up a stainless mixing bowl behind the router and that didn't seem to help.

I was thinking of getting a different repeater with two antennas; extending the one antenna to the dish somewhere up high and the other antenna on the side of my shed with the box inside the shed, but it would have to be the right configuration:  That is to say, the antennae on some boxes are Tx/Tx and Rx/Rx.  I would need one that is Tx/Rx and Tx/Rx for each antenna... one antenna does Tx and Rx for the wifi rebroadcast, and the other antenna does Tx/Rx for drawing in the source signal and sending back.  I don't know how to make sure that is the case when I buy a repeater.

I have looked into cantennas and they are a possibility, but not really easy to set up inside and they look like a lot of calculations for maybe 15dbi if you don't screw it up, when I could get 24dbi with an exterior dish.

If I do a dongle in the LNB, can I connect it to a USB on a router? That should condense the Tx and Rx of the dongle and then send it to the router for local network? Or is the USB just there for router configuration purposes? Speed isn't an issue; the source is only DSL, I'm just looking for reliable connection over a bit more distance.  Does anyone know how to find out if a repeater's antennae are configured Tx/Rx or Tx/Tx - Rx/Rx?  If I can find one of those Tx/Rx setups I can just make an "N" cable extension and put the antenna in the LNB, right?

What I have:
- a USB wifi dongle (at home)
- a netgear repeater (interior antenna with network inputs, but no usb)
- an unused satellite dish (at home)
- a netgear wifi router (at home, I think it has USB)

This will all have to be set up and tested at home because once I'm at the lake, access to parts and materials is slim to none.  I want to come up next year, plug it in, aim the dish, and be done.

Two of these will create a point to point link as long as you have line of sight, plus I believe the 2.4Ghz can penetrate some obstacles. Set one at the source of the internet, set the other within line of site and close to the campgrounds, and then feed the output from the campground side nanostation into a decent router. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoStation-locoM2-2-4GHz-Outdoor/dp/B00DCNRTAG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532105500&sr=8-3&keywords=nanostation

I'm planning to do the same setup to get WiFi into my garage. I have the parts here I just haven't gotten around to messing with it yet.

AWSX1686 said:

Two of these will create a point to point link as long as you have line of sight, plus I believe the 2.4Ghz can penetrate some obstacles. Set one at the source of the internet, set the other within line of site and close to the campgrounds, and then feed the output from the campground side nanostation into a decent router. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoStation-locoM2-2-4GHz-Outdoor/dp/B00DCNRTAG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532105500&sr=8-3&keywords=nanostation

 

No can do.  There is absolutely nothing in between me and the lodge.  No electric, no shelter, just scrubby woods and an abandoned trailer.  This will have to be a single antenna pulling in from 1000' away... which isn't that far, and like I said, I do get some connection with my cheapy repeater sitting on my patio.  The nano is already "pointing" this way, its just that my campsite is the furthest away and the most obscured.  If I had the ability for an external antenna, I could put it either on top of my trailer or on the electric pole beside my shed.  That gets it both around and above the small hill that would get me line of sight (with the exception of trees.)

Here is a picture to give you an idea.  This photo was taken from my front patio under the awning (where my repeater is) The blue arrow points to the Lodge where the Nano is.  It is not quite line of sight.  I can see the roof of the lodge through the trees, but not the nano.  The red arrow shows the shed and the yellow arrow shows the electric pole.  So, given that I can sometimes get an IP where I currently am with a cheap internal antenna box, I'm thinking that moving it to the electric pole (yellow arrow) AND using a dish should cure the issue.  I'm actually typing this from my patio and directly connected to 2 bars of the Nano because the repeater doesn't currently have enough signal for an IP.

I'm confused. So the campsites have no electric?

In reply to Curtis :

In that sort of instance, I have used a WiFi pineapple with multiple radios - have one connect to the camp Wifi, then use the other onboard radio to broadcast your own Wifi signal for use. This would be a way to achieve what you want just by spending money. Some of them include a battery pack too.  https://www.hak5.org/gear

It's a self-contained Linux-based solution with external antennas (so you can do some cool stuff with antennas, directionals, etc). Meant for hacking / penetration testing, etc, where it can become a wifi "man in the middle" and grab the information passing across it.
                            ...but I use my powers for the forces of Good...

My previous Wifi router was one of these https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403784,00.asp that I popped the cover off and added pigtails to connect external antenna like so: https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-internal-connector-bulkhead-external/dp/B003Z37U0M. So with the right antenna, you may be able to fab something using mostly parts you have, maybe connected to a yagi like this? https://www.amazon.com/USB-Yagi-directional-Antenna-802-11n-2200mW/dp/B003LLS5JI   Not endorsing those specific products, just providing links to give you an idea of what you likely need to make your parts act as a wifi extender. 

The yagi could be connected to your router with a long (50'? longer?) lead. It does not need to be directly attached. 

re: If I can find one of those Tx/Rx setups I can just make an "N" cable extension and put the antenna in the LNB, right?

That sounds like it's worth trying. 

The search phrase you are looking for is "biquad antenna" and pick the solution that matches your budget/skills/materials. 

AWSX1686 said:

Two of these will create a point to point link as long as you have line of sight, plus I believe the 2.4Ghz can penetrate some obstacles. Set one at the source of the internet, set the other within line of site and close to the campgrounds, and then feed the output from the campground side nanostation into a decent router. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoStation-locoM2-2-4GHz-Outdoor/dp/B00DCNRTAG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532105500&sr=8-3&keywords=nanostation

 

This is exactly what you need, assuming you're allowed to set up one of the stations at the lodge. It's a directional beam, you don't need anything in between. I got a pair for my shop/house connection and it's working through stucco walls. Mine is a best case with absolutely clear air - but again, stucco walls are full of chicken wire and I still have 99% signal strength. They're tiny little things.

AWSX1686 said:

I'm confused. So the campsites have no electric?

Yes, ours have electric.  It comes into the campground on the pole marked with the yellow arrow and then splits out to our 6 sites.  The other camper you see to the right is abandoned in a section of the campground that has no electric.  Even if it had electric on that side, it is not my "property" to be setting up a repeater.  So basically, I have electric here, but there is no electric in the 1000' between us and the lodge

Keith Tanner said:

AWSX1686 said:

Two of these will create a point to point link as long as you have line of sight, plus I believe the 2.4Ghz can penetrate some obstacles. Set one at the source of the internet, set the other within line of site and close to the campgrounds, and then feed the output from the campground side nanostation into a decent router. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoStation-locoM2-2-4GHz-Outdoor/dp/B00DCNRTAG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532105500&sr=8-3&keywords=nanostation

 

This is exactly what you need, assuming you're allowed to set up one of the stations at the lodge. It's a directional beam, you don't need anything in between. I got a pair for my shop/house connection and it's working through stucco walls. Mine is a best case with absolutely clear air - but again, stucco walls are full of chicken wire and I still have 99% signal strength. They're tiny little things.

I'm having trouble loading the link (because crappy wifi), but that is basically what the lodge already has.  In fact its station name is "nano."  

Ok, got the link to load... that is almost exactly what the Nano on the lodge looks like.  I can't see the brand on it, but its the same identical shape.  That is what I'm trying to connect my repeater to but the signal is too weak and I don't get enough bars to connect.  What I need is not another Nano broadcaster on the lodge since the lodge already has one, I need something that will focus on the existing nano and re-broadcast the signal up here in the campground.

I looked at biquads.  They look simple enough to fabricate, but then what do I hook them to?  A router? A repeater? which brand and model so I know that I have tx/rx on one mast?

Greg Smith said:

In reply to Curtis :

In that sort of instance, I have used a WiFi pineapple with multiple radios - have one connect to the camp Wifi, then use the other onboard radio to broadcast your own Wifi signal for use. This would be a way to achieve what you want just by spending money. Some of them include a battery pack too.  https://www.hak5.org/gear

It's a self-contained Linux-based solution with external antennas (so you can do some cool stuff with antennas, directionals, etc). Meant for hacking / penetration testing, etc, where it can become a wifi "man in the middle" and grab the information passing across it.
                            ...but I use my powers for the forces of Good...

My previous Wifi router was one of these https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403784,00.asp that I popped the cover off and added pigtails to connect external antenna like so: https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-internal-connector-bulkhead-external/dp/B003Z37U0M. So with the right antenna, you may be able to fab something using mostly parts you have, maybe connected to a yagi like this? https://www.amazon.com/USB-Yagi-directional-Antenna-802-11n-2200mW/dp/B003LLS5JI   Not endorsing those specific products, just providing links to give you an idea of what you likely need to make your parts act as a wifi extender. 

The yagi could be connected to your router with a long (50'? longer?) lead. It does not need to be directly attached. 

So maybe I need more education on the topic.  I sorta follow what you're doing, but let me explain what I know and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong.

Let's say I have a 2-mast repeater and I want to put one of the masts in a dish LNB.  If one mast handles the upstream Tx/Rx and the other mast handles the Tx/Rx in the router for the extended wifi, I can put the repeater mast in the LNB and be golden.  But if one mast is all Rx and the other is all Tx, I'm shooting myself in the foot, right?  Because if I put the Rx mast in the dish, I would get great Rx from the Nano, but Rx from my laptop would suck unless I climb the pole and sit in front of the dish.  Also Tx back to the nano would suck because it wouldn't be in the dish.  Am I thinking correctly?

So how do I find out which repeaters (or hacked routers) have the correct configuration of masts?

I'm just not very savvy with these things.  I understand the physical part ... how the signal gets condensed by a dish or can at a focal point, but the part about hacking a box is so foreign to me.  Inside those routers is complete voodoo in my brain.

Also... if a regular wifi router has a USB port, can the USB port act as LAN, or is it just for setup?  If it can be configured to take internet through the USB, I already have all I need (except a USB-A cable to hook it up).  I could put the wireless USB dongle in the LNB, run a USB into the wifi router I have, and it should do the trick, right?  Unless a dongle has pathetic gain and I'm focusing a radio signal into a junk unit?

IN GENERAL, no, the USB port is usually for a network storage device.  A two masted (antenna) router will use whichever antenna has the best signal, not one for Tx and one for Rx.  Extend one of the masts to the center of the dish, where the LNA is located and it should be fine.  I use that technique myself with some Linksys routers.  I got some adapters that connect to the back of the router to coax, then run the coax to a Yagi.  This one:

bought on teh amazones for a few bucks.  Currently out of stock. Similar to this one that is in stock: https://smile.amazon.com/Tupavco-TP513-Antenna-2-4GHz-17dBi/dp/B008Z4I7WQ/

I use 2 of those to get teh Intr4w3bz in the shop, 50 yards away  Well, actually, 3 of them.  2 are on one network airgapped from teh Intr4w3bz and the other one hits a regular router to get teh Intr4w3bz.

Anyway, if you got some connectors and coax and ran one of the router antennas to the focal point of that dish, pointed the dish at your internet source, you would most likely be able to pick it up.  Configure the router first sitting right next to your source so you can take that out of the equation.  I run DDWRT on Lynksys WRT type routers.  I've bricked a few of them putting DDWRT on it.  I just buy them for five bucks ea at the thrift stores.  I think some modern routers have an extender option, so you just point to the source network and give it any needed login info.

So each individual antenna handles Tx and Rx for both the upstream and downstream?  If I put the mast in the dish, the unidirectional dish will increase gain on the upstream part, and then the same mast in the dish will broadcast the downstream wifi omni? (maybe a dark spot behind the dish?)

Then do I leave the other mast off?  Or leave it on for additional omni on the downstream?  Or just choose a box with one antenna?

Your Yagis... why two (or three)?  Just to increase gain?

So many questions :)

I'm not against hacking my repeater to add an external antenna as long as someone helps me not berkeley it up.  That would save me buying a different one.

Curtis said:

Keith Tanner said:

AWSX1686 said:

Two of these will create a point to point link as long as you have line of sight, plus I believe the 2.4Ghz can penetrate some obstacles. Set one at the source of the internet, set the other within line of site and close to the campgrounds, and then feed the output from the campground side nanostation into a decent router. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoStation-locoM2-2-4GHz-Outdoor/dp/B00DCNRTAG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532105500&sr=8-3&keywords=nanostation

 

This is exactly what you need, assuming you're allowed to set up one of the stations at the lodge. It's a directional beam, you don't need anything in between. I got a pair for my shop/house connection and it's working through stucco walls. Mine is a best case with absolutely clear air - but again, stucco walls are full of chicken wire and I still have 99% signal strength. They're tiny little things.

I'm having trouble loading the link (because crappy wifi), but that is basically what the lodge already has.  In fact its station name is "nano."  

Ok, got the link to load... that is almost exactly what the Nano on the lodge looks like.  I can't see the brand on it, but its the same identical shape.  That is what I'm trying to connect my repeater to but the signal is too weak and I don't get enough bars to connect.  What I need is not another Nano broadcaster on the lodge since the lodge already has one, I need something that will focus on the existing nano and re-broadcast the signal up here in the campground.

The problem is that those things are directional, more spotlight than floodlight. If it’s not aimed at you, you will have trouble picking it up. If you can convince the lodge to put up another one aimed at the campground, you may solve the problem for a bunch of people. 

or you get a receiver Nano in the line of the existing one and hook it up to a nice omnidirectional access point. Ubiquiti makes good stuff for all this. It would be good to know how close you are to the coverage area of the current nano. 

Ah, gotcha.  here is another pic to hopefully clarify.  I don't think coverage area is the issue.

The red arrow shows the direction of the Nano.  The blue outline is the campground.  The white lines are the elevation changes.  I'm the purple X, the electric pole is the yellow X.

As you can see, the Nano already points straight at me.  I'm not sure of its broadcast angle, but you can see that it is pretty much already pointing straight at me, so I think I am as much IN the coverage area as I can be.  Adding another nano or re-aiming this one is not really the issue.  It is elevation and vegetation.  I think that the ticket here is moving the antenna down to the pole which will allow it to be higher (above and beside the hill that is blocking me) and also above most of the heavier vegetation.

Gotcha. I think you're right. I'd drop a line to Ubiquiti and ask if they have something that would "lock in" to that nano better than a typical antenna, because they are designed to make a bridge. Getting line of sight (or more of it) with an access point on that electrical pole is the way to go.

Get the big dish from Ubiquiti.

https://smile.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-RD-2G-24-RocketDish-AirMax-Antenna/dp/B00HXT8NPK

That ubiquiti dish is just the antenna, right?  It would replace one of the masts on a repeater box?  In essence, replace my idea of putting one mast from a repeater in my satellite dish, so it still needs the repeater box?

Then (curious still about how the TX/RX works) won't that put the tx rx for the new downstream hotspot in the dish as well?

So confused.

Found this video that specifically shows how to do external antennas on my repeater

I might give that a shot.  Don't watch the whole video.  It is 18 minutes long and 15 minutes of it are his commentary on the current state of electronics.  But its interesting to see the internal antennas on my box and it's no wonder I can't pick up a reliable signal.  I was originally thinking I would want DDWRT, but this box doesn't have the memory to hold the firmware.  I suppose I have until next summer to figure it out.... whether or not I want to spend money on a better box or get dirty and hack this one.

So I suppose I would do those mods (maybe with N connectors for versatility instead of his threaded ones), then maybe an omni mast on one and a Yagi or the second mast in the LNB of a dish.

Another couple questions I thought of...

Is there software I can use to point the dish (signal strength meter) or does that have to be part of the firmware in the repeater itself? (this will help me decide if I add SMA bulkheads to this box or get a box that will accept DDWRT... cause the firmware for this box sucks)

Can I use RG58 as the coax or is it not properly shielded?  The reason I ask is because I already have about 300' of RG58

Update zombie thread:

Just ordered a Yagi.  For $11, that beats the labor involved with converting my dish.  It is also smaller.  The one I got is advertised as 25 dbi, but it looks exactly like the 16 dbi version.  As long as it's more than 10 I think I'm OK seeing as how the PCB-antenna sometimes picked it up before, I think a Yagi will work.

Also bought some SMA bulkhead connectors, some f-connectors, and some RG316 coax to fab up some stuff.  Here we go.

Question.  For the second antenna, what gain should I go with?  There is very little elevation change between the campsites I'm trying to reach, and the furthest distance I want to go is about 250'.  The short distance suggests low gain, but I read somewhere that low gains (below 7dbi or so) were only used for Tx, not Rx?  Is that right?

Gain is gain.  Get as much as you can.  That is, if a bigger antenna is within budget and can be mounted, use it.

I'm talking about the downstream antenna.  Scroll up to my last drawing.  Antenna #1 is going to be a Yagi for Tx/Rx back to the original radio.  Antenna #2 is for just a 250' radius in the campsite for downstream (i.e. Tx/Rx between the repeater to our laptops/phones)

I don't want to go nuts with gain and send a skinny donut of signal.  I'm thinking 3-7 dbi?