Work related issue - off-the-wall solution needed

fasted58 wrote: Boiler water chemistry issues. Do they test boiler, feedwater, condensate and soft water every day and adjust chemical feeds as necessary? Do they monitor boiler water conductivity and blow down the boiler to maintain proper range? Sulfite, Chelant and Amine are typical boiler water treatment chemicals. Their chemical rep (w/ the approval of the facility manager) will set the standards where their chemicals will work in the system, same w/ Ph. Make up water must be soft water, verify the softeners are working. A chemical rep who gets the chemistry wrong or maintenance neglect can wreak havoc on steam and condensate systems. It's far enough into boiler season that post start up checks be all done. Chemical feed pumps and lines working, water chemistry dialed in, softeners verified working etc. I came from a place that treated the steam plant like an appliance, only did chemistry tests once/ month, ran out of salt every winter for weeks, even ran out of Sulfite... how the berkeley do ya run outta Sulfite? And they wondered why the steam and condensate pipes leaked like sprinklers. Check your water chemistry first.

We have a very strict steam purity and chemistry specification for all our stuff.

Nobody follows them, and we can't enforce them.

I'm just a dumb engineer that has to play the hand we've been dealt.

tuna55 wrote:

foxtrapper wrote: That and screens would only keep the lines from failing.

Screens don't work with rust. We have experience with that. Rust is really neat. Imagine a big iron oxide particle. It just whacks into the screen. No big deal, it's bigger, so it just hangs out. Sort of. In real life, it gets bobbles around and shaken and turned over and over until it makes a bunch of much smaller oxide particles, and then they just fly right through.

If you're having that much of an issue w/ rust, check condensate return pump tanks for that rusty sludge laying in the bottom. Eventually, sludge could build up to the pump inlet level, not good for the pump's mechanical seal life. Tank should be periodically flushed out. Good luck w/ getting that on the maintenance schedule.

tuna55 wrote: In reply to foxtrapper: It is closed loop, not sure what I was going on about earlier. Can you revise your post to make it cleaner for the rest? Sorry.

Done. Are you going through lots of water though? If you are, the technically closed look is running effectively open.

The way rust breaks down into an infinitely fine silt does makes it difficult to screen out. But there are some steam line traps with screens that catch chunks early on and drop them down into a settling chamber. This works as long as regular maintenance to clean these traps out is done.

Similar even the fine silt can be precipitated out to a fair degree if there is a condensate settling tank. Something you normally don't want in a steam system, but maybe yours would call for it. But again, regular maintenance to clean it out or it fills and quits working.

There are also some bypass setups using fine screens or other filter media, very much like what is used on some oil lubrication systems. You only get a small percentage of the steam going through on a per-pass basis, but after a few passes, you've had almost all of the steam and rust go through the filter.

In reply to foxtrapper:

We have various types and styles of traps. Most are simply a capped Tee. Since these were installed by someone other than my company, many years before my birth, and I cannot retrofit a trap due to cost and cycle issues, it's a moot point.

I'll be considering this is a seasonal heating start-up as Tuna is in SC, may be different for process steam run year round. After start-up, condensate and DA tanks gets blown down a lot more than usual. Surface and bottom boiler blow downs will be increased too until TDS is stable w/ in recommended range. Nothing wrong w/ dumping tons of condensate to get the water in spec initially, it's all about boiler water TDS. Maintain water chemistry and blow downs after that. Maintenance needs to service their end too. These ain't no appliances... but a lotta facilities treat 'em like that.

Oh good. So you have no budget to fix the problem either.

Do not envy you at all.

Year-round operation with short shutdown periods all around the world.

foxtrapper wrote: Oh good. So you have no budget to fix the problem either. Do not envy you at all.

I can probably spend tens of thousands per site, but that's it, and includes a lot more than just this one problem.

High pressure, high temperature steam in rusty pipe.

Ever consider a safer job? Like the bomb squad?

slefain wrote: High pressure, high temperature steam in rusty pipe. Ever consider a safer job? Like the bomb squad?

It's a really thick pipe.

Steam leaks make excellent saws. Unlike what you're imagining, you can't see the steam. I have heard of broom handles being cut in half.

But I hardly ever go to sites. The office is pretty safe.

I could give you my boss' information and you could talk to him. Or I could give you another individual's name that also has lots of experience maintaining, installing, managing, and training staff with regards to boilers. PM me if you want names and numbers.

Otherwise, I'm with everyone else you: have a maintenance staff not doing their maintenance. Especially if this system has run this long and now the problems are starting to show up.

I've heard the broom handle stories as well. As a jet of steam passes through your flesh it also cauterizes, so you got that going for ya!

tuna55 wrote:

fasted58 wrote: Boiler water chemistry issues. Do they test boiler, feedwater, condensate and soft water every day and adjust chemical feeds as necessary? Do they monitor boiler water conductivity and blow down the boiler to maintain proper range? Sulfite, Chelant and Amine are typical boiler water treatment chemicals. Their chemical rep (w/ the approval of the facility manager) will set the standards where their chemicals will work in the system, same w/ Ph. Make up water must be soft water, verify the softeners are working. A chemical rep who gets the chemistry wrong or maintenance neglect can wreak havoc on steam and condensate systems. It's far enough into boiler season that post start up checks be all done. Chemical feed pumps and lines working, water chemistry dialed in, softeners verified working etc. I came from a place that treated the steam plant like an appliance, only did chemistry tests once/ month, ran out of salt every winter for weeks, even ran out of Sulfite... how the berkeley do ya run outta Sulfite? And they wondered why the steam and condensate pipes leaked like sprinklers. Check your water chemistry first.

We have a very strict steam purity and chemistry specification for all our stuff. Nobody follows them, and we can't enforce them. I'm just a dumb engineer that has to play the hand we've been dealt.

Water chemistry is the answer but.....

You may be the engineer but if they are not following the spec on the build most of the guys I work with would tell the client to shove off until they fixed the actual issue. As opposed to slapping a band-aid on the system that is not being treated to spec and introducing more problems.

wearymicrobe wrote: You may be the engineer but if they are not following the spec on the build most of the guys I work with would tell the client to shove off until they fixed the actual issue. As opposed to slapping a band-aid on the system that is not being treated to spec and introducing more problems.

This.

Sounds like more bandaging won't get you any closer to a solution.

The rust can be chemically reduced to a sludge that can be flushed theoretically,then it is a pipe fitters problem to replace the compromised pipes without a shutdown?

I appreciate the comments, but our scope is way smaller, and the trouble with the way folks use their systems is more widespread and entrenched than you'd think.

I simply can't do those things.

In reply to RossD:

I appreciate the offer. I am afraid that I won't be able to take you up on it. I am already bordering on giving too much information out into the public domain just by posting what I have.

There are lots of long stories and good background available within, but I can't share them to make things more clear.

In reply to tuna55:

Ever make any progress w/ the situation?

fasted58 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Ever make any progress w/ the situation?

Some progress has been made in research on some coatings and I uncovered some internal research on filtration of iron oxide particles, but unfortunately, since they were all internal, I can't share with you guys.

Nothing groundbreaking yet though.