Would you buy this car?

This is really yet another "what car" thread, but I'll start with a couple examples that have caught my eye.  With the Saab 9-3 that we bought from Powar having been totaled, my wife and I are looking for another "fun" car.  The only hard requirements are manual transmission, a back seat (gotta take the grandchildren for ice cream), heated seats, and "fun" for some nebulous value of "fun".  I'll know it when I drive it.    Less than $10k preferably.  For us, the 2008 Saab 9-3 wagon fit the bill: I am partial to Saabs, it was not ponderous, enough power to get out of its own way.

Couple of FB ads  that caught my eye recently:

1986 Saab 900 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1119044872441101 High nostalgia factor (my first car was an 81 Saab 900 Turbo), but this one is not a turbo and also "runs, drives and shifts except into 3rd gear".   I'm not really looking for a project but this is very close to one.

2002 BMW E39 540i https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/267511426361704 179k miles, claimed to have lots of maintenance done including timing chains and cooling system.  V8 + 6MT goodness.  Haven't driven an E39 yet.

We have driven a 2015 Mini Cooper S, 2013 VW GTI, 2014 BMW 428i (because the dealer with the mini and GTI had it on the lot), and a 2012 Volvo C30 (not a manual).   We liked the Mini the best, actually: great shifter, felt very nimble.  The BMW was terrible, the steering felt incredibly vague.  Hoping an older one would be better.

My list of possibilities is all over the place: another Saab, E46 or E39 BMW, VW GTI, Mazda 3, Focus ST, Volvo C30 (or other MT volvo?), Mustang, Mini (little scared of gen2 reliability, not sure we can afford gen3), Lexus IS, Acura TL or TLX...

[Edit: fix link]

I like the Saab 900, but it already has a transmission problem.  So probably not.  And definitely not a BMW.  

Have you tried a saab 9-5 wagon?  2.3 liter turbo, easily tuned to the 300hp neighborhood, and just a bit bigger and a lot more solid than the 9-3.

a nearly 40 year old sweedish car from a now defunct manufacturer doesn't scream reliability like a modern Mazda or Acura.  So this says to me what are you looking for?  modern, reliable, fun transportation or older character filled project that will provide endless hours of fun in the garage?  

spitfirebill said:

I like the Saab 900, but it already has a transmission problem.  So probably not.  And definitely not a BMW.  

Is a BMW any worse than VW, Mini, Volvo?  Ok, a Mini is a weird BMW...

travellering said:

Have you tried a saab 9-5 wagon?  2.3 liter turbo, easily tuned to the 300hp neighborhood, and just a bit bigger and a lot more solid than the 9-3.

Haven't driven a 9-5, but if one popped up with MT I would definitely look at it.

Drive them, as many of them as you can get your hands on.  I also regularly go the "OK but what can I even get with a manual?" route looking at stuff, and it's amazing how many newer cars with 3 pedals seem to be designed to punish you for choosing the manual option- bad ergonomics, bad feel, etc etc.  Once you find out how they actually feel that stuff may shrink your list for you and make it easier to choose something that's actually enjoyable.

ClearWaterMS said:

a nearly 40 year old sweedish car from a now defunct manufacturer doesn't scream reliability like a modern Mazda or Acura.  So this says to me what are you looking for?  modern, reliable, fun transportation or older character filled project that will provide endless hours of fun in the garage? 

The 900 is definitely the outlier in my list of possibilities.  It is also cheap enough that I could spend a lot of money fixing it up if I decided to go that way.

But in my budget we are talking 10-15 year old cars, which brings them into "you are buying the previous owner" territory regardless of the make, I think.  Eg I am interested in the E39 above because the ad mentions the maintenance that has been done.

This is a sunny day fun car so emotion is a significant part of the decision.  An Acura is at the end of the list because it doesn't tickle my fancy as much even if it would make more sense.

The Saab 900, when healthy, has more utilitarian uses than anything mentioned.  IF the framing inboard of the lower control arms and engine bay is solid, if not rust free at least fixable.  The transmission isn't a horrible task.  Being in Maryland rust may not be an issue as it is farther north. 

There are Audi only, Mercedes only and Saab only junk yards in the world so transmissions are easy enough to find.

I can see a 540 or even a 535 with a manual being great fun. 

I just bought a cheap E39 on a lark. I thought "3 grand? fun experiment"  Manual transmission, sport suspension, sport interior. M54 3 liter straight six. One owner, full service history.

It is an astonishingly good car. I did not expect to like it as much as I do. It manages to be both sporty and luxurious. If it was totaled today I would start looking for another one right away. 

So I guess I am biased but more HP and another gear in one of these sounds like bliss.

In reply to Trent :

Can confirm that the M5 does indeed rule. :) 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Drive them, as many of them as you can get your hands on.  I also regularly go the "OK but what can I even get with a manual?" route looking at stuff, and it's amazing how many newer cars with 3 pedals seem to be designed to punish you for choosing the manual option- bad ergonomics, bad feel, etc etc.  Once you find out how they actually feel that stuff may shrink your list for you and make it easier to choose something that's actually enjoyable.

You are absolutely correct, thanks for the encouragement.  When we drove the 428i, I was amazed how much I did not like it.  I swear that our minivan's steering has a better feel.

We are going to go drive an E39 this weekend.  Luckily there is no rush to find something.

In reply to Trent :

Don't forget to put this up for sale here when you are done with your experiment.

Don't forget that the Saab 9-3 went out with a bang, 280hp turbocharged V6 with AWD and a 6-speed manual in sedan or wagon form. The X models in great shape can be a bit dear, but finding a 2010 model with the same specs in your price range is easy. They were GM/Saabs so parts are still easy to find and pretty cheap for the basics.

Autotrader

David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Trent :

Can confirm that the M5 does indeed rule. :) 

I can double confirm this.  My E60 M5 with a real manual is so much fun!!!  

The 540 in the original post looks like the Exon Valdese underneath.  I would want to know a lot more or get it real cheap.

dean1484 said:

The 540 in the original post looks like the Exon Valdese underneath.  I would want to know a lot more or get it real cheap.

I actually did go drive the car, and it is not as bad as it looks in those pics.  There was a light coating of oily dirt on the back of the differential, I saw some oil on the right front motor mount looking down from above, and I thought I saw a drop of oil underneath the transmission (not sure, I was lying on my back in a parking lot and I don't necessarily know what I am looking at).  I didn't see any rust.  Car drove fine.

It is a little sketchy, the guy has not gotten a title in his name, but the car was as described and he is willing to take the car someplace if I want to do a PPI.  We are still mulling over whether we want an E39, and if so do we want *this* one.

Would it be stalker-y to track down the previous owner (who owned it for 8 years until last fall and did all the major maintenance listed in the FB ad)?  His name was on the receipts.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

Don't forget that the Saab 9-3 went out with a bang, 280hp turbocharged V6 with AWD and a 6-speed manual in sedan or wagon form. The X models in great shape can be a bit dear, but finding a 2010 model with the same specs in your price range is easy. They were GM/Saabs so parts are still easy to find and pretty cheap for the basics.

 

Autotrader

Those are so much 10lb of stuff in a 5lb bag that a 3000GT VR-4 is pleasant to work on in comparison.

I speak from experience with both.

The V6 drives the turbo from only one bank because the engine bay is so cramped that there isn't ROOM to drive it from both banks.

For the effort and expense for almost-300hp Swedish jollies, a manual trans S60R/V70R is easier to work on, easier to insure, easier to find parts for, and easier to work on.  I said that twice on purpose.

An E39 is a really nice package. They're just the right size. I prefer the feel of the M5 over the 540i - the latter is nice enough, the M5 feels like a treat. I drove both before deciding on the M. But I'd be very willing to put myself into another E39 if the M wasn't possible - their pricing has changed considerably since I got mine over a decade ago.

IIRC there's a valve in the clutch you want to remove on a non-M E39, some sort of delayed release thing. Also, I've been told the six cylinders have better steering feel due to their rack and pinion although I've never had many complaints about ours. A BMW six is sooo smoooth and packages better in the engine bay than a V8.

E39 M5's are super cool, and I (briefly) considered one as a daily.  However the BMW boutique dealer warned me to budget $4-6000 a year to keep it going, even with me doing most the work.  That's more than I care to spend and trying to daily a 20+ year old German car isn't the greatest idea to begin with...

I don't think I've spent $4k on mine in the past decade. I'm not dailying it, but that seems extreme.

Well, that one is sold, but Saabs of the 900 variety had transmissions made of glass. I had two that broke. Changing the transmission involves pulling the entire power unit out, as the engine sits on top of it. It's really not that horrible, though. The one thing going for Saab 900s has to be that they probably have the EASIEST clutch job of any car the GRM community has ever done.

The end result is that we agreed to buy (completing the deal today) a 2004 9-5 Aero with 118k (sedan, not wagon unfortunately).

Besides buying a spare DIC, what else do I need to look out for?

Amusingly, when I called my local swedish mechanic to get an appointment for a state inspection (and to tell me what I missed during my 15-minute test drive) they said "we don't work on those old 9-5s much any more because of parts availabilty, we send people to the Cadillac dealer".  I need to quiz them more on that, yes Saab was owned by GM but why would they have any better access to parts at this point?

Those 9-5s share almost nothing with any Cadillac, so that makes no sense at all. I'd find a new mechanic. You guys are in PA, right? My pal Jeff owns a Saab-centric shop in Point Pleasant.

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