New used engine for the 6.4 hemi tow vehicle

Long story, but to cut to the chase.  This is going to be a really boring build thread, no hi-po or mad tricks at all.  Just hoping to come out of it with a reliable tow vehicle on a budget.

Photos and story below if I can figure out how to post photos, so you can see all the madness.  The place I could use your advice is on checkout and refreshing the donor engine. 

The truck is a 2015 Ram 2500 6.4 hemi, automatic, 145k miles, rod knock.

The donor is a 2104 Ram 2500 6.4 hemi, badly wrecked.  69k miles on the clock when it stopped.

So my wonderful helper and I cut the engine out of the wreck.  The oil pan was cut by the crossmember in the wreck but the crank turns OK.  The motor mount bolts broke off in the block but the block is OK. Some ears on the front cover are broken but I can swap that from my truck.  So far the engine looks OK.  My main question now is how far to dig into it, what should I check or replace or leave alone?  Your advice is welcome.  My thoughts so far are:

Replace:
spark plugs, water pump, belt tensioners, what else?

I need to swap the oil pan anyway, so I can take a look at the bottom end, would you open up and look at rod and main bearings or just leave them alone?

I need to swap the front cover, so I can look at the timing chain etc while I am there. Leave it alone or refresh? Oil pump?

There is zero evidence of rear main seal leaking so I am inclined to leave the flex plate and seal alone. Or or would you change it?

Valve covers don't look like they are leaking, any reason to open them up?

Any particular common failure items I should replace while the engine is out?

Planning to use transmission, transfer case, intake manifold, wiring harness and sensors etc, all from my truck not the wreck.

This is a balanced budget kind of project. I can afford to replace things that will be likely to make this a more reliable long term tow vehicle. But I don't want to just replace everything in sight whether it needs it or not, nor do I want to open any cans of worms that I don't need to.

Here is today's trophy shot:

Here is the Copart photo that convinced me to buy a truck that turned out to have a rod knock.  Looks good doesn't it?  $6500 for for a 2015 Ram 2500, such a deal...  I knew it would need work, I rolled the dice, I got an engine swap.

Then I found out how expensive Hemi's are, and especially the 6.4.  So I doubled down and bought a wreck from Copart.  This one was relatively cheap.  There is probably an engine in there somewhere...

I’ve read about cam and lifter failures. Horror stories really.

Some  folks make a mds delete kit, that apparently  prevents lifter failures. 

I haven’t seen failures in person nor talked to anyone that experienced lifter failure. It is much talked about on the internet though. 

It may be worth looking in to. Swapping cam and lifters will never be easier than now. 

Folgers said:

I’ve read about cam and lifter failures. Horror stories really.

Some  folks make a mds delete kit, that apparently  prevents lifter failures. 

I haven’t seen failures in person nor talked to anyone that experienced lifter failure. It is much talked about on the internet though. 

It may be worth looking in to. Swapping cam and lifters will never be easier than now. 

There is an updated (I want to say post-2015) lifter that supposedly prevents the failure. I've done a lot of research on this even though I've never owned a modern Hemi, and the consensus was that the earlier lifter used low quality metals, and the poor quality was the cause of failure more-so than anything to do with the mds system. Some have also argued that upgrading the oil pump not to provide more pressure but to actually flow a higher volume of oil is helpful, but I haven't seen any real data on that. Since the engine is already out of the truck it's probably a good idea to upgrade the lifters.

Yeah the notorious 'hemi tick'.  Which in some cases leads to engine replacement. 

I wonder how common the problem really is?  It exists, I get that, but is it 10% of vehicles or 1% or 0.1%?  And at what mileage?  Hard to tell on the Internet.

For sure it's a lot easier to do now with the engine out, but it's still a big job, requires pulling both heads.

Over on the Ram Forum they point out that ticks from the exhaust manifolds are very common too, confusing the issue.  And even for people who have a confirmed lifter tick, if there are no misfire codes they recommend changing oil types and not doing cam and lifter swap.  There are quite a few folks who have swapped cam and lifters and *still* have the tick.  Yikes.

If no misfire codes, oil analysis is one approach to finding out whether the tick is mild or is chewing up parts.  Another thing that is commonly recommended is to check the oil control valve for trapped metal shavings.  I'll do that, it's easy.  But if I don't find any shavings or evidence of trouble I'm strongly inclined to not open that can of worms.

And here are some more photos just for fun.  Evidence of progress.  :-)

I started undressing the engine and checking condition.  Photos soon.

Took off one main bearing cap, it looks great, near perfect.  Checked the oil control valve for chips, none present.  So while I don't know if this engine has an audible tick, I am confident there is no significant lifter or cam damage that would put chips into the oil system.  And it does not appear to have run for long at all after the crossmember cut open the oil pan and let all the oil out.  A Chrysler tech friend tells me that loss of oil pressure causes the PCM to shut off the fuel, so I guess that worked, unless mechanical damage stopped the engine even sooner.

Overall first impression:  This is a nice modern engine, well done.  Good intake design, roller lifters, steel crank, nice windage tray, crossbolted mains, stuff that would have been racing exotica when I rebuilt my first engine back in the dark ages.  Lots of well thought out details.  And this example, badly wrecked at 69k miles, is in great condition.  It should be perfect for my needs.

Second impression:  Wow there is a ton of complexity, plumbing, leak potential and space taken up by the water cooled EGR system.  I get it, modern emissions controlled engine, but wow... would it make sense to delete this?  Or would that lead me into the hell of custom tunes and expensive unlocking of the PCM and so on?  And also, while the intake is good from a performance perspective, the exhaust is terrible, log style manifolds that look restrictive and not at all tuned.  Like what I would expect to see on a 1960's Detroit engine.  They have learned so much in so many ways, why are these exhaust manifolds so bad?

Tempting to consider a set of tuned headers, now while the engine is out.  But how much would I gain?  If it was a lot you'd think the OEM would have done it.  And again would it lead me into PCM tuning nightmares? 

This is a fun project.  The last engines I tore down were Fiat and Volvo four cylinders that still had vestigial 'auxiliary shafts' in the block where the camshaft used to be in the legacy pushrod version.  It's cool to see how far Detroit has come, a lot of the details on this engine are very easy to admire.  I'm feeling good about putting it into my truck.

It would be interesting to know more about the manifolds. as this isn't something limited to Ram. I've seen at least a few tests where moving from manifolds to headers, specifically on domestic V8s, really didn't make much more power though. Specific example when I was considering long tubes for my 8.1, on an engine dyno with a mocked up straight pipe exhaust, where they should make the most difference, moving from logs to long tubes of different sizes was basically within measurement error of the dyno. Even given the low power density of the 8.1, I was expecting at least some meaningful change.

ekauppi7 said:

Long story, but to cut to the chase.  This is going to be a really boring build thread, no hi-po or mad tricks at all.  Just hoping to come out of it with a reliable tow vehicle on a budget.

Photos and story below if I can figure out how to post photos, so you can see all the madness.  The place I could use your advice is on checkout and refreshing the donor engine. 

The truck is a 2015 Ram 2500 6.4 hemi, automatic, 145k miles, rod knock.

The donor is a 2104 Ram 2500 6.4 hemi, badly wrecked.  69k miles on the clock when it stopped.

So my wonderful helper and I cut the engine out of the wreck.  The oil pan was cut by the crossmember in the wreck but the crank turns OK.  The motor mount bolts broke off in the block but the block is OK. Some ears on the front cover are broken but I can swap that from my truck.  So far the engine looks OK.  My main question now is how far to dig into it, what should I check or replace or leave alone?  Your advice is welcome.  My thoughts so far are:

Replace:
spark plugs, water pump, belt tensioners, what else?

I need to swap the oil pan anyway, so I can take a look at the bottom end, would you open up and look at rod and main bearings or just leave them alone?

I need to swap the front cover, so I can look at the timing chain etc while I am there. Leave it alone or refresh? Oil pump?

There is zero evidence of rear main seal leaking so I am inclined to leave the flex plate and seal alone. Or or would you change it?

Valve covers don't look like they are leaking, any reason to open them up?

Any particular common failure items I should replace while the engine is out?

Planning to use transmission, transfer case, intake manifold, wiring harness and sensors etc, all from my truck not the wreck.

This is a balanced budget kind of project. I can afford to replace things that will be likely to make this a more reliable long term tow vehicle. But I don't want to just replace everything in sight whether it needs it or not, nor do I want to open any cans of worms that I don't need to.

Here is today's trophy shot:

 

Here is the Copart photo that convinced me to buy a truck that turned out to have a rod knock.  Looks good doesn't it?  $6500 for for a 2015 Ram 2500, such a deal...  I knew it would need work, I rolled the dice, I got an engine swap.

 

Then I found out how expensive Hemi's are, and especially the 6.4.  So I doubled down and bought a wreck from Copart.  This one was relatively cheap.  There is probably an engine in there somewhere...

You probably had to walk around to the back to even confirm that that was a Ram.  Holy crap.  Hope the driver survived.  

In reply to A 401 CJ :

The "bio" scribbled on the hood has me thinking maybe not. 

Yeah holy crap is right, it was a hard hit for sure.  I could have walked all around it and not known what it was.  Copart advertised it as a Ram and I checked the VIN that confirmed it was a 2014 Ram 2500 with the 6.4 Hemi that I needed.  The drivers compartment is not crushed, the airbags fired, I would guess the driver survived.  Probably the rescue workers tore the door off.  I'd guess that big BOSS snowplow mount absorbed a lot of energy.  As did pushing the front axle so far back that the front driveshaft busted the transfer case in half.  Holy crap.

Turns out this was at the outer limit of what would have worked for me.  As is often the case on Copart, the damage was worse than it looked.  I'm lucky that the motor mount and other bolts broke off in the block, the bosses on the block did not break off.  The AC compressor mount bosses on the aluminum timing cover are busted, but I can use the cover from my truck.  The starter was busted up, as was the transmission bell housing, and that jammed the motor so it wouldn't turn.  But the mounting ears on the block are OK and once the trans and all was removed it turns as it should.

gearheadE30 said:

It would be interesting to know more about the manifolds. as this isn't something limited to Ram. I've seen at least a few tests where moving from manifolds to headers, specifically on domestic V8s, really didn't make much more power though. Specific example when I was considering long tubes for my 8.1, on an engine dyno with a mocked up straight pipe exhaust, where they should make the most difference, moving from logs to long tubes of different sizes was basically within measurement error of the dyno. Even given the low power density of the 8.1, I was expecting at least some meaningful change.

What has an 8.1? 

Anyway yes, while the exhaust manifolds look awful to my eye, I have no data on how much power a good set of headers would gain.  ARH sells a good looking kit of long tube headers and catted Y pipe for about $2000 for this truck, but interestingly they do not have claims of power gains or dyno sheets on their site that I found.  

This is a tow vehicle on a budget, not a race car, so I will resist temptation and leave it stock.  If they showed proven MPG gains that would matter to me more than peak HP.  But now that I think on it, going down the highway at 70 is what it will do most, and in those conditions the exhaust flow is not all that high.  Proper resonant tuning would always help, but if the cam and manifolds are designed to work properly together for this RPM range it may be just fine.

I'll be using this motor in the RPM and load range it was optimized for.  And in the modern CAFE era I hope I can assume the OEM designers did a decent job of optimizing it.  Very different from racing applications where the RPM is quite different than what the designers planned for.

Anybody have any thoughts about Exhaust Gas Recirculation and EGR delete?

I'm not really up on EGR strategies, how much EGR modern engines use and when, or what effect it has.  This thing appears to have a sophisticated electronically controlled EGR valve with several sensors around it, so I assume the PCM has complete control over EGR.  What does it do when, and why?

My objection is aesthetic, it uses up so much room in the valley of the V, and it has water hoses and a bunch of connections to fail, not to mention electronics.  But I'll probably just live with it.  The guys on the Ram forum are not b!tching about it much, so it must be reasonably reliable and not too offensive.

Oh here are some of the promised photos.  A scary shot of what the front crossmember did to the oil pan, this had me a bit worried:

But here is a main bearing cap and the crank journal:

This is the left side of the block with a busted exhaust manifold and all the bolts broken off in the block.  Half of them came out easily by hand, just applying a couple of picks and pushing them around.  I expect the others will come out easily when I apply the left-handed drill bit, I probably won't have to use the 'easy out' screw extractor at all.  Which is the most mis-named tool I can think of, they should be called 'difficult out'  or other words that should not be printed on packages.

The 8.1 was an option on GM 3/4 ton vehicles as an alternative to the duramax if you had a lot to tow but didn't want a diesel. They're kinda cool imo, but have little aftermarket support, barely double digit mpg, and the power difference vs the GM 6 liter truck engine is not all that impressive. With that said, my neighbor has one and it has never failed to tow anything he's dragged home.

As to your EGR system, to my understanding the EGR helps keeps combustion temps lower, so you might want to leave it alone especially if you intend to toe with this engine.

dannyp84 said:

The 8.1 was an option on GM 3/4 ton vehicles as an alternative to the duramax if you had a lot to tow but didn't want a diesel. They're kinda cool imo, but have little aftermarket support, barely double digit mpg, and the power difference vs the GM 6 liter truck engine is not all that impressive. With that said, my neighbor has one and it has never failed to tow anything he's dragged home.

As to your EGR system, to my understanding the EGR helps keeps combustion temps lower, so you might want to leave it alone especially if you intend to toe with this engine.

 

People hold them dear these days.  Big gas is making a comeback in HD pickups.  

Yeah big gas is what this is. I'm told the casting says BGE on it. 

My current tow vehicle is a Ford E350 van with the 7.3 diesel. 2002, old school and while it is an electronic turbodiesel it is not up to the power of the newer trucks. It goes down the road just great, we've done a lot of long road trips and it has never stranded us or felt underpowered for our toy hauler. But:

It's 2wd, we've been stuck pretty often, it gets old. Typical scenario is we go to a festival and they park us in a grass field. We have a great time And it rains and on Sunday we are hungover and just want to go home and we are stuck.

It's loud with the diesel engine in the doghouse between the front seats.

It's getting old and vans are a PITA to work on. 

Have you seen the price of diesel lately? 50% or more over gas.

In reply to ekauppi7 :

I wanted to hold out for a 2wd truck when I bought my Frontier because I knew it would ride nicer and maybe be better on fuel, but stories like this made me glad I could only find a 4x4.

Yeah some 4x4 1500s have IFS now and I think I spotted a 2500 GM truck with A arms and halfshafts.  I'd like that, I'm sure it rides better than having that huge cast iron axle bouncing up and down.  4WD is a thing that many of us use like 1% of the time the truck is on, it's crazy the handling and ride and fuel economy hit we put up with.  But that 1% matters a lot if it's the difference between just pulling a lever and going home, versus spending most of the day finding a tow.

I'm a day late and a dollar short (as always) but one North Carolina man has created a very successful business solving the 4X2 issue for Econoline owners.  Besides, a 7.3 E-250 or 350 is highly sought after these days because #vanlife and all.  Plus they didn't exactly make a whole lot of them.  Don't let it go too cheap!

https://www.ujointoffroad.com/

Update:

The new used engine is back in the truck, it started on the first try, no drama at all.  There's a dramatic story about the donor truck below.  So anyway the tow pig is alive and well, we've put a few hundred miles on it and chased most of the minor issues down.  As of today the A/C and the ABS and cruise control now work, but the MIL came on for an O2 sensor.  Typical two steps forward one step back.  Hopefully we leave this weekend pulling the toyhauler for a two month 5000+ mile winter vacation.  Anybody know any good motorcycle riding and boondocking sites in Arizona and New Mexico?  I hear there are some.  :-)

If you haven't driven one, a Ram 2500 4x4 is a *big* truck.  Heavy and big and thirsty.  But it has tons of torque and is quiet and smooth.  My sweetie says she likes driving it, so that's a big win.  She put 300 towing miles on it yesterday.  And unlike our old diesel van it's not hard to work on and by now I know it very well.  :-/

The story about the donor truck:

It's a 2014 Ram 2500 with the 6.4 hemi and low miles, that's all I cared about.  It's a single cab with an odd short bed and light bar, almost like a wrecker but with no crane.  The frame rails stuck out behind the bed, like maybe for a sling..?  Anyway after I cut the engine out of it with a torch I posted the remains for sale on FBM.  I got a lot of replies but the most interesting one was:  "hey that's my buddy's truck!  He's been in the hospital for the last five months, he built that truck out of his imagination and he'd really like it back."  Whoa.  So the previous owner did survive.  I replied that the truck was in no way rebuildable, best that might be possible was that the bed and light bar could be transplanted onto a new truck.  Since an earlier guy from FBM was at that moment loading it on to his trailer, I connected the two of them and stepped back.  I understand they have been in touch since, but I do not have details. 

A lot of things interest me about this story, starting with the good news that the PO survived.  Another interesting thing is that the truck was listed on Copart for several months, searchable by model and VIN and with clear photos of the very unusual rear.  But there was no action that I know of until I posted it on FBM and got the above message and several others from folks who said they knew the truck. Small world, or the power of Facebook, or something.

What could possibly go wrong, setting out on a two month trip with a newly re-assembled truck? Well we are back after 7500 miles, and the answer is.... nothing.  It used no oil, no ATF, I topped up coolant once.  Used a lot of gas though.  This truck project is officially a success.

Anybody want to buy the 7.3L diesel E350 van?  2002, 240k miles, runs great.  I'll be posting it in the for-sale section soon.

How much were you thinking for the van?

Honestly I don't know. Need to do some research. What do you think? 

It is mechanically sound, frame is solid, but there is some body rust, bottoms of doors and wheel wells. 

IDK what your all in price is but i think you're still ahead of the game if you bought one from a dealer. Nice work! I love my 2016 3500, but yeah it's a HUGE truck.  Same body config as yours but diesel. 

Yeah, all in but not counting my labor, I'm well under 2/3 of private party book value.  And I know the condition of the truck intimately, unlike a fresh purchase.

I rolled the dice with Copart, if it was a win I'd be under 1/2 of book and with a lot less labor.  I lost the roll and had to do major work so it's not that great but still better than buying retail.  Since I had the time and mostly enjoyed the project, I have no regrets.