Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo

I can't help, but I want to share:

My Uncle has a 1966 GTO that was his first car. He intends to restore it. Someday.

He parked it in about 1985. Outside. In the mud. In Central New York. It's still there. The roof might still be good.

Don't get down on yourself for being slow, at least you're getting stuff done.

In reply to tuna55:

Thanks Tuna, that helps.

OK, last nights 'progress' between thunderstorms, mosquitos and family. So per SaabRally forums the thought is either the ECU is not receiving the tach signal, or the ECU is dead.

I could see an easy way to get to the back side of the ECU connector. There isn't two screws as someone told me, there's just one at one end and the cable coming out at the other end. Will investigate further if needed.

So, with the ECU removed and the ignition on I tested power to each pin Vs ground. With the jumper removed from the fuel pump circuit removed I had power to the following:
Pin 18 which I believe is the ECU power circuit. So it is getting power.
Pin 16 which I think it the AC circuit.
Then putting the jumper jack in so the fuel pump circuit is getting power I still got power to pins 16 & 18, but additionally I also had power to:
Pin 1 which I believe is the Ignition pulse signal. I think this is the tach signal I was told may be missing so I may have a dead ECU. See more thoughts below.
Pin 4 which I think is the Automatic trans, which doesn't make sense as this is a manual car
Pin 20 which I believe is the O2 sensor

I got these pin out from ‘Table k. LH 2.2 Electrical Tests’ on page 240-20 in the Bentley manual. In that table it actually Pins 1 and 25 are the Ignition Pulse circuit, not just pin 1 I mention above. It also says the test is which cranking. So, that being the case, I may or now may not have a dead ECU.

I’m not going to get a chance to head out to the car again until either Sunday or Monday night, but I think I need to sit down and read the full diagnostic procedure through several times before I head out to the garage again then I think I really need to get the ECU Connector cover off and check from the back side while it is plugged in and get a helper so I can crank at the same time.

Anyone is SE Michigan friendly with electrons?

Electrons, I hate the berkeleyers. They are not playing the rules and skiping out on the job somewhere. I’ve been screwing around with this on and off for months now, posting progress and looking for suggestions over on SaabRally. The consensus was a dead ECU, another procured and still no joy. At this point I’m >< far from a gallon of gas and a box of matches. I’ll screw around again this weekend, if not is anyone handy with a volt meter and a wiring diagram for some time next weekend? Beer and Pizza on me.

I know nothing about Saabs. What are you missing now, spark fuel or air?

When I had a similar problem it was a ground wire causing the injectors not to pulse.

In reply to tuna55:

I have fuel pressure to the rail when I jump the fuel pump circuit, but the relay does not energize it. It's the same type of relay as the ECU circuit and I have 4 of them in total and they all work. That issue pre-dates the no start as I had to to that when I got the car. I have spark, but even with the pressure to the rail the injectors are not firing.

Cut and past from when I ran the diagnostics per the Bentley (bible) manual bellow:

Ok frustration level 10.

WTF now?

It was after this that the suggestion came up I had a dead ECU per this post:

Good news I think. Everything connected except the ECU and the MAF plug. Power on, ground to pin 21 and the fuel injection relay and 'click' it triggers. Dead ECU it is then. Off to paypal for me.

New ECU (from an 86/87 not 88, but they are both LH2.2 with the main diff being the idle control, they should both work on my 88) and still no joy.

Latest suggestion from discussion over on SaabRally this morning is the boost switch, comp 144 top center of wiring diagram highlighted in red below.

f6sk wrote: When I had a similar problem it was a ground wire causing the injectors not to pulse.

I think it's more than a ground as I can force the fuel pump relay to fire when I apply power to the correct pin-out on the ECU terminal, so for some reason the ECU is not telling the fuel relay to fire, and also not telling the injectors to fire. Hmmmmm, talking about it is helping clear things in my mind a bit. Thanks guys. So, I have what was a good ECU (the one in when I got it) and a different good ECU (Purchased from a very well respected guy on SaabRally) but it's not telling things to fire. Therefore it's not getting a signal it needs. the more I think about this now the more I'm homing in on the pressure switch I mentioned above as I've checked (I think) every other input to the ECU. I need to locate the pressure switch over the weekend and check that.

Laugh or Cry? I don't know.

Well I started again today pinning things out. I soon found I had no power to the ECU, funny I used too. Check fuse 22.....dead. OK, I wonder why, when that blew. No problem I'll change it for now.

OK, power to the ECU. Let's try it. Still no fuel pump relay firing, let's just jump that again.

Hit it.... This is the result.

You tube start up

Let's have a look. This is the turbo

Oil, oil every where.

And this is what the tail pipe looks like

You tube tail pipe smoke

So part of me is jumping for joy that I actually got it started, but lets take stock. 1. The Fuel pump circuit won't trigger from either ECU although it works when I remove the relay and jump across there terminals which suggests it should. 2. The turbo that worked fine before I pulled out the interior has decided for some unknown reason to do it's best 1980's F1 klabamo after not having run for a year.

Why? WTF is going on. I do have another used turbo of unknown heritage in a box. Do I bolt that on, or do I either try and rebuild one of them myself or pay for a pro to rebuild one of them? And why would a turbo just die on a car after lack of use?

Also, the fuel pump relay issue? WTF, anyone have any ideas?

At least it's started, although I couldn't get it to re-start a 3rd time after the first two. At least ut was trying, I wonder how much oil has now got in the engine, do I have to pull the head off and clean it up as well?

Progress without moving forward.

Wow, so I finally got some time in the garage this weekend. Fixed the brakes on eldest daughters 2001 MDX, slider pins corroded solid so it took twice as long as it should, but I did get a solid 4+ hours on the Saab, the first and last chunk of which were clearing the accumulated crap off it and tidying my tools, but I still got a good chunk done.

After the SE MI GRM get together AussieMG and his son Vince suggested my issues could be a blocked fuel filter and or just the timing was way off. I had been planning on getting it up and running then doing a full service as it used to run fine, but instead did the service first. So off to eEuropparts and Rock auto.

Glamour shots of parts!!.. Ooohhh Aahhhhhh

Changes the fuel filter, cap and rotor, plugs, plug wires, PCV valve plus sundry vacuum fittings, hoses and unions then set the timing from scratch. I got a new coil as well, but it appears to have been dropped and the ceramic around the top is scratched so I’m talking to Rock Auto about a new one before I fit it.

It fired up instantly and pulling the timing light out was gratified to see I was within a couple of degrees. Tweaked it and reattached the vacuum advance. The result? E36 M3

When it first started I had oil bubbling around the turbo flange that I’ve had before. It stopped once up to temp though. Don’t anyone complain about the vertical video OK, I don’t need the Glove and Boots clip again! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-vayVYg1ZY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2LsOEctuB4

Well as you can see it idles well, but it won’t take any throttle input. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UuyjfuFV34

Try driving it and it’s the same thing. I can drive it around the block by slipping the clutch, but it’s a bucking bronco under any load or as soon as I let the clutch all the way out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8jo012xh-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDPLphc8jQI
So, any more ideas? If AussieMG’s son is still up in Michigan I’ll offer him free beer and pizza for some help.

Looks like you need a new turbo flange gasket, and have a bad seal in the turbo that lead to some pooling as it sat.

Is your MAF hooked up again? Looks like it can cause a flashing engine light, and would probably cause your drivability problem: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111321

In reply to bgkast:

I'm beginning to agree on the turbo, but I want to get to bottom of the poor running first.

I may at last be onto something though. First the MAF. It's not that, someone over on SaabRally suggested that I try unplugging the MAF, I did that and it won’t idle like that, it stalls after a few seconds, so the MAF is connected and at least doing something.

Someone also suggested that I may have a blocked CAT or exhaust. At first I rejected that as I drive it into the garage and it was fine so I didn’t believe it, but I investigated anyway last night. I set out to disconnect the down pipe from the elbow coming off the turbo. Three simple nuts to undo, drop it out of the way and try it. I told my wife I was popping into the garage for 20 mins, two and a half hours later I was back inside. So, one bolt comes off with heat, one shears off and the third wouldn't budge for love nor brute force. Much grunting, sweating and a couple of broken tools later it's free. The down pipe won't move off the elbow and down, I thought it wouldn't drop but it doesn't, so I push it across so it's about 20% open. I set off and at first I think it's made a different, but no its soon back to normal. I limp round the block and home to find it's slipped back in place so if the exhaust us blocked, it had just pretty much re-sealed itself. It was dark by then, I've got no hood, lights, plate or anything so I figured I'll call it off for the night. I’m going out tonight but I’ll drop the rest of the exhaust on Thursday and see. I’m likening the blocked exhaust more as it may explain why the boost gauge fluctuates even under no load. Massive back pressure could be causing an anti-lag boost build condition.

If it does (Please please flying spaghetti monster let it be) then I’ll be interested to find out what happened. Did the CAT suddenly implode or did mice climb up the tail pipe and make a home in the muffler. If it’s the latter I still blame the cats, just the feline type for not doing their job rather than the precious metal kind 

Assuming it’s a blocked exhaust, once the obstruction is gone, I wonder if the turbo will still be leaking oil, or it’s caused by massive back pressure?

Well, you are at least narrowing it down.

Blocked exhaust sounds plausible. My guess is mice. I would still replace your turbo gasket at least, it shouldn't leak like that.

Progress. It runs! It drives!...But....Yes there had to be a but didn't there?

OK, so as I said above it runs. I removed the exhaust and it ran the best it's run in over a year. I could actually drive it around the subdivision without slipping the clutch or a bucking bronco impression. When I got back I figured I'd try it with the MAF unplugged again per a suggestion from the SaabRally guys. Apparantly with the air meter unplugged the car should resort the fuel injection to a sort of limp mode, where it injects fuel based only on RPM and throttle position. This can be helpful for diagnosing mechanical problems (rather than fuel injection sensor problems), since a plugged cat will make it misfire badly under load either way.

It will run badly, but if it will run under some load and at higher RPM's with the Air meter unplugged that points you to a sensor issue. If it does the same thing it could be mechanical.

So I get out to unplug the air meter. Guess what? it was still unplugged from the night before. Plug it back in and it won’t run for E36 M3 again again.

So if you're following it would sort of run, but badly with the exhaust on and the MAF plugged in, but if you unplugged the MAF it would stall. Remove the exhaust and it's running 'well' when the MAF is unplugged, but stalls again when it's plugged in.

Right now I'm thinking it's a MAF issue. The plastic cover fell off when I touched it, so some foreign material could have got into it over the last couple of years. The exhaust is in mint condition, everything looks almost new, other than the studs that sheared when I separated the downpipe from the elbow the other night, every fastener and slip joint came undone with ease. I've never had an easier time.

So, i guess I'm looking for another air meter to try. Anyone got one for sale or return? Also since there doesn't seem to be a blockage in the exhaust I guess the seals on the turbo are gone from the gunk that was coming out of the flange in the video the other day. Si I suppose I need a $50 e-bay T3 rebuild kit then put the whole thing back together. I do have a spare, but unknown turbo I could put on.

Driving it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqF9Bu0NNA

Pulling in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu71TZ4sca8

Cat is perfect

Pretty much mint exhaust

Shopping list:
Air meter
T3 rebuild kit
Sundry turbo and exhaust manifold gaskets
High temp paint

Thoughts?

P.S. Honestly I'm not a total mechanical ignoramuses. I've built engines, done engine swaps, fitted LSD's to FWD Trans, built one car from two etc. etc. This things is just killing me

A strong effort to bring Loki back to life here sir. You might want to check for a decent Diesel service facility nearby on the turbo rebuild as they tend to have the skills and may do it cheaper than you can buy the parts.

And I have heard that ebay turbo stuff is unbalanced and would have to get the compressor shaft(?) notched to balance it out.

In reply to 84FSP:

I'll look into it.

BeardedJag wrote: And I have heard that ebay turbo stuff is unbalanced and would have to get the compressor shaft(?) notched to balance it out.

This is the type of kit I'm talking about, just the bearings, seals, circlips etc, not the whole thing

I think I'll start a separate thread on turbo rebuilding.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Ooooh, I gotcha.

I am encouraged by your progress so far! Good job sticking with it.

tuna55 wrote: I am encouraged by your progress so far! Good job sticking with it.

Now that is high praise from the master of all rebuild threads. Thanks Tuna.

Keep it moving sir! You've inspred me to take a day off work and crank on El Rabbito...

The SaabRally community is awesome, someone is sending me a MAF for free to try.

I don't think I'm going to re-build the turbo for now. Consensus seems to be that a little seepage from the gasket is not unusual, I’ll replace that and get it running first, then see. If I’m going to touch the turbo I’ll wait until it’s running right and look at a mild upgrade, perhaps a 60 trim compressor.

This weekend is a long honey do list plus some family commitments, so if I get out to the garage it will be some clean up. Any one use XTC ‘Xtream temperature coating paint for exhaust manifolds/downpipes?

I need to replace the studs in the downpipe flange, exhaust components are normally English units, but as it’s a Saab I wonder if they are metric, I’ll have to check the treads.

The new MAF arrived last night..............Unfortunately no change. Runs kinda-sorta in limp home with no MAF. Barely runs with either old or new MAF plugged in.

So, new or swapped parts:
ECU
FPR
MAF
Fuel filter
Plugs/wires/cap/Rotor
Various vacuum hoses and fittings
Exhaust completely removed so there can be no back pressure
Fuel pump relay jumped as although it and all circuits check out, it doesn't run without being jumped.
New gel cell battery that is on a battery tender al the time so it's always fully charged

When off boost I assume nothing in the APC system should affect the running so I guess I can skip that.

Boost/vacuum gauge seems to jump around. Anything I should look into?

I read through this thread again to be sure. If I get the order of events right:

Buy car

Drive around, not great, but it runs and drives mostly like a normal car

Tear out interior

Mount rollcage and neato seat

Do headliner

Car doesn't run properly and we can't find out why

If this is right, I would retrace my steps. Stop diagnosing it's 'now' state for a little bit and go through what you did to make it not-run. I suspect you may have something grounded/not grounded improperly when you tore out the interior and wiring bits.

Thoughts?