$2000 Challenge Rules

In reply to Robbie :

Yes mine has a Bradley production tag. Word is they're totally out of order so that people couldn't figure out how many they actually produced. 

Edit found the picture

Huh. Interesting...

In reply to Stampie :

I’m not doubting anything you have shared. However, I would say this matter is DEEPLY into the territory for staff approval. 

You haven’t said if you intend to use factory frame rails or pan from another car. 

I understand that prior to 1981 VIN numbers were not standardized. I also understand that the word “Serial Number” and “VIN” are often interchanged. 

Serial numbers are used on virtually all manufactured products. If a company was making production automobiles, they would have used a serial number. If they were only in the business of making after-market  body kits, they still would have used a serial number. Existence of a serial number does not make it a production vehicle. 

It sounds like you have found perhaps the one vehicle that is an exception to the rule, and that YOUR car is completely legit. I tip my hat- you are the loophole king. 

Since none of us know what the staff intended by the rule, I think it is appropriate for the staff to clarify, so we can understand how it applies to ALL vehicles, not just yours. 

I’d be very interested in knowing how this applies to some of the aforementioned vehicles like the Reliant, golf carts, Cushman, ATVs, Elf replica, etc.

Cool car, Stampie. And interesting history lesson. 

SVreX said:

In reply to Stampie :

You haven’t said if you intend to use factory frame rails or pan from another car. 

I haven't said that I'm building the Bradley GT. But thanks for the discussion.

It sounds like you have found perhaps the one vehicle that is an exception to the rule, and that YOUR car is completely legit. I tip my hat- you are the loophole king. 

Thanks, I try.

I suspect the Bradley would be allowed on account of it's pretty cool. I also think that the rule is intended to keep things from escalating into completely handmade vehicles that don't resemble cars, not to exclude edge cases like kit cars.

The four-wheel part is probably just to keep anyone from tipping over. 

If a Subaru shell on a tube-framed race car chassis is legal, the Bradley GT body on whatever chassis isn't that much of a stretch. I'm not a fan of either to be honest, but that's the slippery slope that's been allowed.

how are OBD tuners (like HP Tuners) counted in the budget,  the entire price of the unit plus the credits or just the credits?  Technically only the credits "stay" with the car.  Also if you pay someone to flash the ecu what you would be paying for is essentially the credits that allow you to upload a tune.  Researching a future build and was curious as to how these are handled

Interesting that the Bradley's have come up.

I'm about to pick up a free 88 Fiero 4cyl to rebody.

No intent of using the bent Fiero frame/body and the GT6 body I also have lacks some critical space so now looking at using a Bradley body instead.

'Glass is easier to modify than steel, custom chassis/cage to hold the Fiero rear cradle is simple to replace the VW pan.

Fiero track is only 6" too wide, so only mild flares needed.

So the "Production" status of the Bradley bodies becomes important for me too.

Alternately if the Bradley body is ruled NOT "Production*", as I read the rules, I could just add additional frame members to any production chassis rails, even the simple angle-iron from an old King Midget, and still have a legal "Production" based chassis and "Free" body.

If I'm wrong please explain how.

Yah, I would be a first timer for this.

* (They made about 6,000 which is a lot more than many other recognized "Production" cars!)

In reply to RichardSIA :

The body is debatable, but the frame/ chassis rails are not. I would argue that if all you you use is only the Fiero cradle, you will have used sufficient frame to call it a rebodied Fiero. 

Build it. 

I’m really interested to hear if the Bradley is ruled a production car. 

As I understand it though most were sold in kit form (and therefore probably not a production car), a few were apparently sold from the factory completely assembled as production cars with VINs. 

Is the Bradley a production car?  Do only the Bradleys with VINs qualify?

In reply to SVreX :

The rules specifically call out "unibody structure" so no, you can't just pull an engine cradle out of a fiero and stick it in a tube chassis.  You can argue till your face is blue, but a cradle is not the unibody structure of the car.

In reply to Patrick :

You sound unhappy. 

The car as he described it is legal. 

Any additional info interjected by either you or me is irrelevant. 

In reply to Patrick :

I think that is a question worth discussing, not dismissing. 

The Fiero technically doesn’t have a cradle. It has a subframe. All the suspension and drivetrain is attached to it. It is the complete structure,  drivetrain, suspension, and rear axle. Hub to hub. 

I agree with you that a cradle is not a frame on the Fiero, but it’s close. If 6” worth of factory framerails are legal, the Fiero subframe is certainly much more of the car. 

Consider a Miata. The Miata is technically a unibody with 2 subframes attached. But there is a PPE connecting them. The entire Miata body can be removed from the roller skate. The roller skate can exist with the entire frame, running gear, and all 4 wheels attached. It is every but as much a complete chassis as any body-on-frame car.

Is it a frame?  It’s certainly a sub-frame (not a cradle). Is it legal?  Is it only legal if I leave a small piece of the unibody floorboards attached to it?

We will probably not see a Fiero sub-frame passed off as a car at the Challenge, but we will certainly see a Miata roller skate.

Its a legit question which deserves a real answer.

In reply to SVreX :

Vehicles must retain production frame rails or equivalent unibody structures

The cradle isn't the unibody equivalent of frame rails.

In reply to Stampie :

I agree. But a sub-FRAME is.

I was posting in the wrong thread. I moved this question to the Challenge Supreme Court thread. 

Maybe I was not clear?

By my reading of the rules, if the body is "Production" I'm free to do whatever I like for a frame.

By my reading of the rules, if the body is "Not Production" I may extensively modify a recognized production frame to take the non-production body.

I have a spare GT6+ frame lying around. I think Model A frame rails were mentioned as a possible "Production" starting point.

So if I were to graft the Fiero sub-frames to the front and rear of the GT6 rails I should then have a "Production Triumph GT6 Frame" ands be free to use the Bradley body.

Additional diagonals, roll cage structure, and body supports should not alter that.

With a change of springs this would give me a pretty light and solid chassis with suspension by Lotus. 

I never even considered trying to claim the Fiero sub-frames as a production chassis.

I doubt the wheezy little "Iron Duke" would be a threat to anyone in the drags.

In some ways it does not really matter which is production, body or frame, as long as one or the other would be.

A "Production" Bradley body would make chassis fab a bit simpler as I would not have to splice the GT6 parts into the build.

As a side note, Bradley bodies are plentiful and surprisingly cheap since around 6,000 were made.

RichardSIA said:

 

So if I were to graft the Fiero sub-frames to the front and rear of the GT6 rails I should then have a "Production Triumph GT6 Frame" ands be free to use the Bradley body.

I don't think anyone would argue with that.  I certainly wouldn't .

I never even considered trying to claim the Fiero sub-frames as a production chassis.

Yeah but now you got Paul going.  I see you have more sensibilities than him.

Oboy, I had another thought! 

The Bradley comes complete with a title, on a VW pan.

So if I cut away all but the back-bone and SN# of the VW pan, then graft Fiero sub-frames onto the back-bone with VIN# I may retain both the existing title and "Production" frame status!?

Still prefer that Bradley bodies be recognized as "Production" since I really want to recycle the VW pan for another build.

RichardSIA said:

Oboy, I had another thought! 

The Bradley comes complete with a title, on a VW pan.

So if I cut away all but the back-bone and SN# of the VW pan, then graft Fiero sub-frames onto the back-bone with VIN# I may retain both the existing title and "Production" frame status!?

Still prefer that Bradley bodies be recognized as "Production" since I really want to recycle the VW pan for another build.

*now* you're thinking like a Challenger!!!

SVreX said:

In reply to Patrick :

The Fiero technically doesn’t have a cradle. It has a subframe. All the suspension and drivetrain is attached to it. It is the complete structure,  drivetrain, suspension, and rear axle. Hub to hub. 

nope.  show me where on the Fiero subframe the vertical forces from the springs are reacted.  it is indeed a subframe, but it is far from "the complete strucure" because it doesn't carry the weight of that end of the vehicle.  

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Good point and the same holds true for the Miata example.

Okay, so it seems one way or another the "Production" bit is covered.

I thought I had asked an accounting question but see no answer and now cannot locate the late night post.

I buy the Fiero for $1.00, how much may I recoup selling the body, chassis, and interior bits I will not need?

$1999.00 remaining budget, so I should easily be able to buy replacement front suspension parts.

Cage/chassis mods/tires and whatever body I go with come out of the 1999.00 too.

But if I'm limited to half the purchase price for recoup that's only .50¢! 

In reply to RichardSIA :

No you can recoup the entire purchase up to $1000 overall but not more than your purchase amount.  Forgive me if I’m wrong but I’m seeing what appears to be hearsay rule quoting from you.  Have you read the rules in detail yourself? 

In reply to RichardSIA :

$1.  You can recoup max $1000 but no more than the initial purchase price of the item.