'87 4000cs quattro Challenge Build

despite my greatest efforts I failed to get the audi to wuste. it all came down to the tight schedule I gave myself. 2 am the day we were supposed to leave I had just "finished" the wiring and was configuring megasquirt. I bought a shiny new MS3 ecu under the impression that it was ready to fire a single coil/hall effect setup out of the box. this is not true. so after trying to start it and quickly realizing we had no spark, I threw in the towel on the audi. put a new fuel pump on my 280z and drove the 7 hrs to vegas.

taking a Japanese car to a European car show was still fun and I probly got more compliments on the z than I have heard for the 4000 in years past, but it was pretty disappointing to come up short after all that work. Kinda felt like running a marathon and collapsing within sight of the finish

so all I really have left before I can break this fresh motor in is: install a bip373 ignition driver and a few jumper wires. that's it. hopefully soon I can sort out the rest of the minor issues and get it back on the road. haven't even touched it since we got back over a week ago. . . how sad is that? lol

I was wondering if you made it. Bummer. I always enjoy the pictures and adventure that you bring back from the show.

hopefully this year I can take it to battlebornquattro in October. . . that should be a fun one if we can make it.

I think im done with the minor brain surgery, if any megasquirters wanna chime in here feel free. I installed the bip373 into Q16, ran the 330r resistor jumper from r26 to igbtin. . . all other jumpers look to be installed by diyautotune. . .

the only one im not sure about is the jumper in the lower right seen here it goes to the middle terminal on Q16 where I installed the bip373. . . is this right for a hall effect trigger? should I move it? delete it? I just cant find anything about this specific jumper when wiring for a single coil, hall effect sensor setup. any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

Did you ever get the MS jumpers figured out?

And I sadly missed out on that White 4Kcsq. The guy sold it after I already told him I was coming to buy it.

dang thats a bummer. but there are still plenty running around the state, im sure another will turn up. I did get the jumpers figured out and got my ignition system sorted with some help from a couple other 10 valve guys over on theprojectpad. . . today im hoping to spend some time on the car and get it fired up once and for all. spark is good now, timing should be damn close so im starting to suspect its a fuel issue since it wont even try to fire. hopefully I will have an update soon.

looks like the injector circuit isn't working on the brand new MS3 I bought. this was confirmed today with my old v2 stimulator. hooked it up and got nothing out of the injA, injB or fidle LED's. just to make sure it wasn't my stimulator I hooked that up to a used MS1 ecu I have and everything came to life as it should. I even reloaded the firmware and tried again to be sure it wasn't a software issue. The ironic part is, I bought that used MS1 for a challenge budget friendly $100 but wasn't confident in it givin the time frame I had to get the car running so I splurged on the pre-assembled MS3 to avoid any unforeseen issues with the used ECU. over a month past my "get it running" due date and I still don't have a running 10vt. should have just gone with the old setup. lol

emailed DIY today so we will see what happens. I just hope im not out over $500 on this deal.

I may buy another bip373 and try to start it up on the MS1 setup for the time being. who knows how long it will take to get this ms3 sorted out

Wrong again! Turns out there are 2 different fuel outputs on ms3 and as luck would have it the one I am not using was set as default. After chasing my tail for a week all I had to do in the end was change one setting in the basic configuration and it rumbled to life. Still needs a lot of tuning before it is ready to drive but it was nice to finally hear it fire up and idle today. Special thanks to Eric (elaw) from theprojectpad for helping me figure out something so simple. Another thanks to vt10vt for explaining a lot of the ignition stuff that I couldn't make much sense of in the megamanual. should be back on the road before long now.

I have come to the conclusion that my 630cc monster injectors are just too big. I gave it a valiant effort but the only success I had was getting the car to idle decent albeit ultra rich. . . everytime I try to lean out the mixture the idle gets rough and the car dies. I tried leaning it out every which way possible using the required fuel setting, the VE table, the O2 sensor control, and the fuel pressure, all ending up at the same result. poor, rough idle followed by it not running at all. doing a bit more research the last few days leads me to believe its the injectors themselves that are just way too big for my small valve 2.2
I kinda knew this when I bought them but at the time they literally were the only size available in the ultra short body so I figured I would try them out. luckily now siemens offers a 42lb version in the same short body which should be perfect for my power goals with this engine. just ordered a set. hopefully they will be much more tunable than the 60lb squirters I have in there now. . . and they will actually fit under the 10 valve intake design unlike most standard size injectors that can be had for nothing. I would rather buy the short ones than run an intake spacer along with all the other changes I would have to make like new fuel rail brackets, longer throttle linkage, re worked intake plumbing, etc.

What's the injector "dwell time" or opening time at idle? Once you get below 1.5 to 2 milliseconds, the injectors will not open and close properly, there just isn't enough time! I'm running 32lb injectors on my built 2.6L 10v N/A 5cyl, this is a much more appropriate size! I also found that you want a max of 20 to 25 milliseconds at full throttle, more than that and the injectors stay open constantly and can overheat. You can play with the fuel pressure and crank it up to make a small injector flow more, but you really can't drop the pressure below 40psi or it will effect the atomization and spray pattern...

type 85: cant remember the exact number but they definitely hovered right around 2.0 milliseconds at idle which kind of explains why I was actually able to get them to idle at all but not able to go any leaner. my fuel pressure is set at 38psi, much lower than that and it wouldn't idle at all. I believe I was at the absolute bottom of the operating range for this size injector. glad to get some input on this as I hate throwing parts at a problem but had I made the right decision in the first place I wouldn't need to

oh well, new set should be here this week. finally taped up the harness yesterday. the engine bay is still cluttered but that one thing really cleaned it up a lot I think.

while I wait for injectors I will probly try to clean up the vacuum system in my ongoing effort no make a 10 valve look more like a nice engine and less like a mess of hoses and wires.

BTW, your engine bay looks amazing already!!!

I'd also either move or build an air box for the air filter, it's pulling super hot air right off of the exhaust manifold.... 10v's already have a big problem with heat soaking the intake manifold because it sits on top of the exhaust... I've gone to extreme measures to reduce this.. and I have a N/A 10v, turbocharging just compounds the issue!

Ceramic coated AND wrapped!

Yeah I hear ya on the heat issues. I honestly would have ceramic coated the exhaust parts if I wasn't straining to keep this thing under challenge budget money but I do plan on putting the air filter in a lower position, behind the bumper. I still have quite a bit of things to do, like mounting an oil cooler, 60-2 crank trigger wheel, etc. But I did take it around the block a few times last weekend, atleast now I can say it runs under its own power again so things are still moving forward. For some reason my fan isn't coming on till its over 200 degrees which is a little concerning. . . Not sure why but I will probly just get a relay and trigger the fan off of megasquirt. At least then I can control when/what temp it turns on. Plenty of work ahead of me as always

Try this: 034 Motorsports crank pulley and trigger wheel

2K4Kcsq wrote: Yeah I hear ya on the heat issues. I honestly would have ceramic coated the exhaust parts if I wasn't straining to keep this thing under challenge budget money but I do plan on putting the air filter in a lower position, behind the bumper. I still have quite a bit of things to do, like mounting an oil cooler, 60-2 crank trigger wheel, etc. But I did take it around the block a few times last weekend, atleast now I can say it runs under its own power again so things are still moving forward. For some reason my fan isn't coming on till its over 200 degrees which is a little concerning. . . Not sure why but I will probly just get a relay and trigger the fan off of megasquirt. At least then I can control when/what temp it turns on. Plenty of work ahead of me as always

that looks like a nice trigger setup. . . very similar to what I have planned with my own devices. updates on that once my trigger wheel shows up.

got a few simple things accomplished today. relocated the air cleaner, added a heat shield between the turbo and the intake, and fixed a cam clearance issue I was aware of but overlooked in the dash to not get the car running in time

@type85 on the subject of trigger wheel mounting. . . one thing im not sure of is how to clock the missing teeth on the wheel in relation to tdc. . . any thoughts on that??

You can set where it is in Megasquirt.

Awesome that's good to know. Thanks man.

2K4Kcsq wrote: Awesome that's good to know. Thanks man.

Yeah, usually you tell the software how many teeth past TDC the VR pickup is. My system has a 0° timing check feature, so you can fine tune it with a timing light to verify that 0° is really 0°!

Ok so it's the same way you can setup the hall on the distributor. Makes sense.

I had similar issues when I first got my MegaSquirt... The issue with mine ended up being a defective MicroSquirt Control Card, DIYAutoTune was great and I had a replacement in less than a week after they confirmed it dead. Glad to hear you got it solved and its running on its own power! MEGASQUIRT is a great tool, but it does come with a bit of a learning curve... I'm still tinkering on my setup at the moment. If I can help with anything, please don't hesitate to ask

@dansxr2 thanks man, I will likely have plenty more questions, mostly relating to ignition tuning. Bur that's what I love about megasquirt the most, it forces me to keep learning. it may take me longer to get up and running but its so much more rewarding in the end once you know your management system inside and out.

on that note, I am suddenly super busy this weekend. .

still waiting on the oil cooler but the trigger wheel alone is enough to keep me plenty busy this weekend. hopefully my friend sam has some free time and will let me hop on his lathe and mini mill so I can get the heavy fab work out of the way. After that I can convert my distributor back to one window make up some 10an lines and get the oil cooler installed. wire up a relay so my fan will turn on when it should, then maybe I can get some tuning done. haha

on the subject of the fan. . .it only seems to work in overrun mode, above 205 degrees or after I turn off the car. . . this one has me scratching my head because I have tried every which way to hook up the wires involved on each of the 2 post sensors it had before. . . couldn't get the gauge to read until I installed a new VDO sending unit. everything worked fine on the stock CIS setup and now its not. . . most vw's are pretty simple on this cooling circuit but the audi is a little different. . . the thermo time switch is wired into the body harness instead of the CIS wiring so it makes me wonder if it plays a role with the fan turning on or off since I no longer have it connected. . . bentely schematics were little help. checked the fan switch in the radiator with a jumper and it seems to be fine

any of you audi guys running engine management care to chime in or speculate? type85, I bet your fan works!

2K4Kcsq wrote: on the subject of the fan. . .it only seems to work in overrun mode, above 205 degrees or after I turn off the car. . . this one has me scratching my head because I have tried every which way to hook up the wires involved on each of the 2 post sensors it had before. . . couldn't get the gauge to read until I installed a new VDO sending unit. everything worked fine on the stock CIS setup and now its not. . . most vw's are pretty simple on this cooling circuit but the audi is a little different. . . the thermo time switch is wired into the body harness instead of the CIS wiring so it makes me wonder if it plays a role with the fan turning on or off since I no longer have it connected. . . bentely schematics were little help. checked the fan switch in the radiator with a jumper and it seems to be fine any of you audi guys running engine management care to chime in or speculate? type85, I bet your fan works!

With the ignition on but the engine off, pull the 2 wires on the fan temp switch at the bottom of the radiator, it's on the back side, left side of the tank. Connect them together with some wire, this should turn the fan on, if not, I'd look at the fan relay, make sure it's working, swap it with a spare, if it's clicking but no fan, then power is getting to the relay, but not the fan.. You can also play with the wires going to the fan, I found on my car the previous owner had connected them incorrectly, my fan only ran at the "low speed". You can also check the wires with a volt meter to see if on is a ground and the other one(s) are 12V.

2K4Kcsq wrote: @type85 on the subject of trigger wheel mounting. . . one thing im not sure of is how to clock the missing teeth on the wheel in relation to tdc. . . any thoughts on that??

IIRC it needs to be 10 teeth off of TDC #1 for best reliability. Basically you want it where the single pin is on the flywheel.

Had a thread on this subject on the project pad.

since I have a tiny lathe, I'm forced to chuck on the ID and try a face cut/part-off approach to the trigger wheel bore. first step was to finally remove all the safety gear from my lathe

then used a pointed grooving tool to cut half way thru the face at the diameter I needed. also made a reference mark for fastener placement later on

once both sides are grooved and I'm to nervous to cut any deeper, I used some heavy tubing and an old bearing to press the coin out the middle

now I'm asking the question. . . fasten or weld?