The Silver State is just that A CHALLENGE
Hard to keep the speed with the selected Category
Good Luck
The Silver State is just that A CHALLENGE
Hard to keep the speed with the selected Category
Good Luck
The_Jed said:This thread has sent me down the performance luxobarge rabbit hole.
It's the route to financial doom. Unless you go Lexus or Infiniti. However, I do like driving my E class more than I did my GS. Maybe if the GS had been a newer generation, it would have been more comparable.
RacingComputers said:The Silver State is just that A CHALLENGE
Hard to keep the speed with the selected Category
Good Luck
Thank you! Being rookies and in the touring class, we won't be allowed to use a rally computer or any phone apps. I'm working out a spreadsheet that should give us our target time at each mile. I'll also have calculations for how fast per mile we need to go to make up or lose a specific amount of time. Frankly, I'll be satisfied with landing inside 30 seconds, happy within ten seconds, and absolutely ecstatic if we can pull off being within a second of the target time
Finally got back to messing with it. I hit the hammer store, and bought a digital caliper and magnetic mount. Pulled the left wheel, and set it up:
Ideally, I should pull the caliper and rotor, but I just went with putting the magnet mount over the screw that holds the rotor to the hub, and using a couple of wheel bolts for pulling and pushing on the hub. Spec is 0.01-0.02mm of movement. I got 0.01mm with some effort, and really pulling on it, got it to flash 0.02mm for a second, so I figure I'm in spec. Out of curiosity, I checked the right side, and got 0.01mm, so it is looking like front bearing play is eliminated as a possibility. The tires I have are not directional (just have an outside and inside), so I swapped front wheels around, and took the car for a test drive. No luck, and the vibration is still more noticeable at low speeds when turning right. I also tried while accelerating, driving a steady speed at different throttle points, coasting, and braking. If any of that made a difference, I can't tell. Based on having more vibration in the wheel than the seat, my gut is telling me this is a front end issue, but I just can't be sure.
At this point:
Eliminated (probably):
Unlikely:
Other possibilities:
Getting down to a little over two months before we need to be on the road, so I am getting nervous, and working on contingencies. It's only mildly annoying at 70 MPH, but I am worried it could actually be dangerous at 100+. May hit the local drag strip's test and tune to see how it feels at speed, even only for a second or two. If eastsideWife will let me use her GTI as a backup plan, it is tempting to get a full front end kit, and see if that does the trick. If not, I am beginning to think I should punt, put the car up for sale, and start shopping for something newer and lower mileage, even up to looking at new left over 2023 Mustang GTs. I have not been able to participate in anywhere near as many motorsports as I'd like over the last several years, so I don't want to miss this.
Swapped the rear wheels side to side and took another drive. No change that I can tell. Also, while on the highway I kept one hand in the wheel, and touched the driver's door panel and the center console with the other. Definitely more vibration coming from the steering wheel than elsewhere.
You've probably said this but I missed it, how old are the tires?
Sonic said:You've probably said this but I missed it, how old are the tires?
No problem - brand new as of last fall. Vibration issue did exist on the old tires, too.
Ball joints or control arm bushings? This is probably a long shot but maybe inspect the vanes on the front rotors. See if by chance any have broken off causing a rotor to be out of balance.
Blunder said:Ball joints or control arm bushings?
Those, plus tie rod ends are what I am guessing is most likely. Can't really find any discernable looseness with the front end in the air, but with the tight specs for the wheel bearings, maybe it's a similar situation for the rest of the front suspension.
In reply to eastsideTim :
Is it possible that one of the wheels is bent or otherwise slightly out of round?
wae said:In reply to eastsideTim :
Is it possible that one of the wheels is bent or otherwise slightly out of round?
Possible, but I would have thought moving them from side to side would change the direction I feel the vibration in in a turn.
We went for a bit of a drive this evening, covering speeds from 20mph city streets, some 45mph and 55mph country roads, and some 80mph highway driving. On the surface streets I really can't feel anything but once we get on the interstate at 55-60mph, there's definitely a vibration there. It actually seems to smooth out a little bit when we're closer to 80, but it doesn't go away. I'm also picking up a little bit of noise to accompany the feeling. There's also a pull to the right that isn't completely tragic, but it would mean that unwrapping a burrito would take two steps with a steering adjustment in the middle.
If I brake moderately heavy from 80, I can feel the vibration get much stronger. In fact, braking hard from 30 I can feel it as well. I'm not feeling anything on hard right or left turns at 20-25mph. Rolling downhill with the brakes barely applied doesn't seem to result in a pulsing, nor does dragging the brakes slightly while staying on the throttle to maintain speed.
I thought that I might have heard a clunk when going over a bump, but it was only the one time and I might have been imagining it.
Were the old tires cupped at all? Maybe get a crow bar and apply some leverage to the control arms to see if there is any movement or slop in the control arm bushings.
In reply to Blunder :
I think the old tires had relatively even wear. Neither wae or I can seem to find any looseness when making a turn, I'm not hearing or feeling any ball joint popping. Also of note, on the drive back home, I could no longer notice a different in right and left turns or if there was one it was pretty tiny. I don't aggressively brake in general, and the brakes on this thing are massive, so don't really need much effort to stop the car, so I am wondering if the heavier brake use cleared up some deposits on the rotors.
Based on the idea it could be an issue with brakes, maybe uneven deposition of pad material on the rotors or a sticky caliper, I grabbed my infrared thermometer, and took a drive on a state highway, trying to do minimal braking. Before I left, everything was around 75 degrees. Pulled into a parking lot after having to stop a couple times (tried not to hit the brakes too hard). Calipers were about 93-95 degrees, and rotors were about 150-158 degrees. Since the side to side difference wasn't much, I'm ruling out a caliper being the issue. I could try to aggressively re-bed the pads/rotors, but I suspect they are the originals, so I think I am just going to order a new set of pads and rotors and see if that does the trick. I am really hoping that is all it is.
Still, could be wheels. I'm trying to get eastsideWife to order her new summer tires/wheels for her car so I can snag them for a short drive and see if the vibration goes away.
Having been through the joys of chasing a clunk in the front of the facelift W211 wagon we had in Germany (E280, but 3litre M272 with a *manual* trans), and now chasing a different noise in the front of my W211 E55 back home in Oz, I'd highly recommend just throwing a set of castor arms, lower control arms/ball joints and tie rods at it. Even the little 3.0 will comfortably run all day loaded to the gills at 100mph on the Autobahn, and will pull 120mph with no problems. Of course, the E55 is a very different beast, mildly tuned they'll comfortably pull 180mph with the speed limiter disabled.
I tail chased so hard on the wagon in Germany because the first part I replaced was faulty, but was exceedingly hard to replicate the clunk. Febi can go jump, highly recommend Meyle, particularly Meyle HD for the castor arms - the heavy duty bush in them makes a big difference.
Being a facelift car, yours has the slightly faster w219 rack, which makes a big difference in feel (just swapped one into the e55), and having the sport package, yours will have the big sway bars. There's enough room to drill an additional set of holes on the front bar (have to grind a flat on one side of the flange nut), and I think also on there rear - makes them stiffer in roll and generally makes them feel taughter. They also run a huge amount of caster, in the order of 10 1/2 degrees - this does not remotely help turn in, but it's part of what makes them feel rock solid at speed. You can modify the upper ball joints (slot the 2 holes closest to the ball joint so they rotate forward around the third - only need to slot to the edge of the raised circular register) to get them back down to about 7.5, and then a set of "crash bolts" in the castor arms will let you pull another 0.4 degrees of caster out, this lightens the steering and improves turn in. The same crash bolts can be used for dialling some camber in (or out, depends which way you fit the bolts) when fitted to the lower control arm.
Sport package front damper bodies have a number of ring positions that let you adjust the height of the spring perch and dial the front up or down, looking at the pics they are probably on the lowest position.
I don't think there's a "crash" bolt for camber on the rear, only adjustment is toe, which is a pain because the exhaust mounts have to be disconnected to get enough clearance to actually adjust the cams (12 point hex on the outside is the locking nut, torx in the middle is the cam adjustment).
Check for codes related to the intake flappers, they have a propensity for wearing, jamming and breaking a bellcrank on the front of the intake, or popping the ball joints off of the 3 vac actuators - new intake manifold aren't that badly priced, and the performance improvement on our 3 litre after I did the swap was significant. Be aware that the replacement intakes and tensioners (water pump maybe? I forget) don't come with the holes tapped for things like the fuel rails or idlers/brackets, I think they expect the OEM bolts to cut their own threads - they even list a different torque spec for first time fitment of the fasteners into the non tapped holes. I of course thought this was insane and busted out the tap and die set, luckily it had a M7 for the fuel rail holes.
Apologies for the brain dump, they are great cars, if sometimes overly complex (ie that bloody MOST ring stereo).
Oh yeah, if you still have a problem with that visor not rotating all the way up, remove visor and carefully wick some 3 in 1 oil for the shaft bushings. The lube fails and they bind up, stopping them from rotating up to the detent position - seems to be a particular problem with the up specced visors that can slide sideways along the pivot, they don't rotate around the metal (d shaped) shaft, they have a plastic on plastic bushing arrangement.
Am I missing something or do the symptoms point to slightly warped rotor(s)?
jfryjfry said:Am I missing something or do the symptoms point to slightly warped rotor(s)?
That is my hope. Front rotors and pads are on order
Attempted a brake job this evening. Too tired, had to stop and put back the old parts for now. Will attempt again when I've had more sleep
Was bale to get to the brakes after work. Took a while, as some of the hardware fought me, even though it's not a rusty car. I also had to run back a minute into my first test drive because I remembered I hadn't hammered the caliper retaining pins all the way in on the passenger side. Back out on the test drive, the vibration is reduced, but not completely gone, so the brakes were probably part of the problem.
I have my wife's new wheels in the garage, so as long as the hub bore is big enough, I can pop the centering rings off and test with them tomorrow. However, on the test drive I realized something...
eastsideTim said:
What's wrong with this picture. I'm a berkeleying idiot. Bearing play is measured between the hub and the spindle. I put the magnetic base on the rotor, which is bolted to the hub, and the caliper on the grease cap, which is pressed into...the hub. The fact that I got any movement at all makes me doubt the high quality of the harbor freight equipment, but thinking back, I was pretty much putting all my weight into pushing or pulling the lug bolts, so the 0.01-0.02 mm movement could be from some flexing, or from vibrations from me throwing my weight around. I'm too worn out tonight, but tomorrow morning, I plan on jacking up the front of the car yet again, pulling the wheels, pulling the grease caps, then redoing the measurements, and adjusting as necessary.
Pulled the grease cap on the driver's side, and am getting measurement of 0 to maybe 0.01 mm, so if the gauge is right (which I am having my doubts about), then the bearing is too tight. I would think that would just cause accelerated wear, not the vibration I am feeling now. Any thought? Going to pull the passenger side next, and check it.
Sounds like the bearings are bad. I might have missed if you took them apart and examined the races and bearings. Then again I've had the same issues with the front rotors being out of spec for runout.
brad131a4 (Forum Supporter) said:Sounds like the bearings are bad. I might have missed if you took them apart and examined the races and bearings. Then again I've had the same issues with the front rotors being out of spec for runout.
Replaced the driver side bearings and hub a ways back due to some looseness, so they don't have many miles on them at all. I'm going to try to adjust them a bit, since it looks like they are too tight. First, I'm going to check the passenger side. Got sidetracked earlier and need to get back into the garage.
So, using wife's wheels are out. They won't fully fit over the E350's hub. Might be able if I ditched the grease cap, or if I popped the center caps out of her wheels. But, since I already took a speck of paint out of one them moving it around the garage to get it to the car, I don't want to do anything further to risk damaging the finish on the first new set of wheels she's ever owned.
Earlier, I measured the passenger side bearing play, after spending way more time than I should have to remove the grease cap on that side. I swear, for a car that isn't rusty, way too many parts take way more effort than they should to remove. But, I digress. The play was 0.03 mm, suo just a tiny bit out of spec. Since I did not trust my gauge to be perfect (and admittedly, it does say it has a 0.01 mm tolerance), I tightened up the passenger hub, and loosened the driver hub until it was relatively easy to get 0.01 mm of play, and with some effort, 0.02mm play. Took some time, as just tightening the locking bolt was enough to have an effect, it seemed.
Test drive was unsuccessful. Didn't seem to help or hurt. I did try something else that has thrown another possibility back into the ring, maybe. I downshifted to 6th and 5th gear at about 70 MPH, and I don't think the vibration frequency changed, but it feels like the amplitude did. It is making me wonder if I am looking in the wrong place, and maybe I need to replace the engine and transmission mounts, if maybe they are sending some additional vibration to the driveshaft. Of course, I could also be completely wrong, and it could be bad wheels, bad control arms, or it could send me down a rabbit hole of replacing driveshaft giubos and carrier bearings, and seeing if the differential is bad.
This really sucks, as it is definitely at a point where I'd happily daily drive it for ages, until the problem becomes more obvious. I'm just worried it'll make itself really obvious during the Silver State, destructively, since we are talking about twice the kinetic energy going through everything at 100 vs 70, and I'm looking at getting to speeds higher than that on some stretches. Getting tempting to put it up for sale and try to find something suitable. Less than 2 months to go.
Are all of your wheel bolts the same style and size? Did you ever replace the control arm bushings?
Blunder said:Are all of your wheel bolts the same style and size? Did you ever replace the control arm bushings?
Wheel bolts are all the same. Did not replace control arm bushings, would more likely replace the control arms in their entirety, just due to time. The problem I am having is the car drives very tight, no slop when turning, so that kind of leads me to think bushings are passable. I'm also worried that it'll be yet another thing to spend time and money on, and still not fix the problem.
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