In reply to mke :
Chuck_Norris said:
I'm typeless!
You just beat Chuck Norris - you are an internet king among men!
In reply to mke :
Chuck_Norris said:
I'm typeless!
You just beat Chuck Norris - you are an internet king among men!
Here's a few options I think are possible with a 3pc design followed by the welded design followed by the OEM design. I set up the 3pc to use studs rather than bolts to keep the face a bit cleaner looking but with design 1 or 3 bolts are for sure an option, maybe with design 2.
Family kept me busy most of the weekend so I didn't get the slicks off my 2nd set of 550 wheels....I need to get that done and get them listed. I see numbers on ebay in the $400-$700/wheel but I don't know if they are selling or sitting yet.
Visually I really like your stud idea. They are even a tiny bit lighter.
TurnerX19 said:Visually I really like your stud idea. They are even a tiny bit lighter.
I wish it were my idea....I kind of stole it from the image wheels pics.
Right now I'm leaning to this one. I tightened the fit center to rim ID a bit to git it a more 1 pc look...I'm thinking not bad at having the feel of the factory wheels. If I paint rather than power I could put seam sealer of similar in the gap and get a very 1 piece look....maybe see how the parts fits and then decide. But first sell stuff to get money.....
In reply to mke :
By the way, relative to Image, BTDT, I understand completely why you do not wish to purchase from them....
mke said:TurnerX19 said:Visually I really like your stud idea. They are even a tiny bit lighter.
I wish it were my idea....I kind of stole it from the image wheels pics.
Right now I'm leaning to this one. I tightened the fit center to rim ID a bit to git it a more 1 pc look...I'm thinking not bad at having the feel of the factory wheels. If I paint rather than power I could put seam sealer of similar in the gap and get a very 1 piece look....maybe see how the parts fits and then decide. But first sell stuff to get money.....
This one looks amazing. Could you silver solder the front to give a fully one-piece look?
mblommel said:This one looks amazing. Could you silver solder the front to give a fully one-piece look?
Thanks, its my favorite too.....funny how the first thought is usually the best thought.
The files are here is anyone is interested...at least I think its a working link
I could weld it to make it 1 piece :)
I could probably make it a light press fit. Heat the rim up to 350F or so and drop the parts together and together they stay. Maybe add a bit of a fillet sitting proud on the OD of the center....
Oh berk..... Chuck Norris has joined the forum..... Please don't roundhouse kick me into oblivion...... 
In reply to Bill Mesker :
In fact, Chuck Norris joined the forum in 2013,it's just that Chuck Norris doesn't do much internet, it's rather the internet that does much Chuck Norris .. Haha
With all that said, Chuck Norris had to take a moment to watch this roundhouse kick of a project .
So I heard there was some epic build thread with a Ferrari and a V12 and a bunch of custom work. Figured I'd try to read it all at once when I got a chance.
Holy E36 M3 was I missing out! Quite likely the best build thread on this site, maybe of any site!? 
Some builds have a similar quality of custom work but none would match the quantity!
I have an idea that may be of use in fitting your ITB trumpets. It's not the most tidy but it works well: Since you're short on space, stagger the trumpet lengths slightly and alter their directions so that you can keep them full-diameter and jumble them together, like this:
The differing lengths do mean that ideally you'd have to tune per-cylinder, but even without per-cylinder tuning it works quite well. With your 3D printer you could print unique trumpets for each cylinder to make them all fit like this - perhaps even with a matching airbox if you like.
Also I will someday use your multi-MAP sensor board on my own (relatively dull as dishwater) project, with the individual MAPs at $12 a piece it's surprisingly affordable!
In reply to GameboyRMH :
The real reason you see staggered trumpets on BBC Can-Am cars is to eliminate an abrupt torque bump. Deliberate "off" tuning. Drivers requested it when equal length was the first iteration, and it was impossible to control wheel spin in top gear as the torque peak was crossed.
TurnerX19 said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
The real reason you see staggered trumpets on BBC Can-Am cars is to eliminate an abrupt torque bump. Deliberate "off" tuning. Drivers requested it when equal length was the first iteration, and it was impossible to control wheel spin in top gear as the torque peak was crossed.
I always saw the different lengths and never knew why. I would have never guessed that!
Let's just think about losing grip due to torque in a downforce car in top gear for a second... Okay, mooore than a second.
It occurred to me after I posted, that the same torque versus traction issue may be present with this Ferrari!
TurnerX19 said:It occurred to me after I posted, that the same torque versus traction issue may be present with this Ferrari!
I was going to post that the issue you described is a dream of mine :)
I was a busy with tile in the shop powder room last night so Lana's thrilled but I didn't have time to get to stack length and general tuning thoughts.
First I'll start with there are many ways to interpret the same data so what I'm saying it how I interpret it, not that any on interpretation is wrong...and it will get a bit geeky.
On my engine, and most engines the tuning stuff like headers, intake, and really even cams aren't the primary drivers of torque peak, they can bugger it up for sure but that's different from helping. The torque peaks when the intake velocity is optimal so for any given displacement cylinder, the bigger the intake port the higher rpm the torque peak will come at. The more efficient the intake port the more torque you get.
Form there the tuning stuff is used to boost the torque when the port is not operating at optimal rpm. The stacks and headers are normally tuned at the hp peak rpm and are used to get the charge moving before the piston is creating any meaningful suction opr pressure. I don't remember what I was working on with this graph, it looks like a couple different exhaust options but it a generic 350ci V8 at about the hp peak. The intake and exhaust are tuned to the 3rd reflection pulse....the intake is creating pressure when the IVO and the exhaust vacuum at EVO.
I used to use the word "harmonic" but that's not right, pulse or reflection is the right word. The header, collector, intake runner only resonate at 1 useful frequency, the primary frequency, and tuning is done be pick a length that give a primary frequency that had reflections at useful times. Both header pipe and intakes are USUALLY tuned to the 3rd reflection, collector to the 5th but shorty headers are generally the 4th, long tube heads the 2nd and some intakes may be on the 5th or 6th.....it depends on packing and sometimes as much on avoiding unhelpful reflections as thing come in and out of tune.
The graph below is a my engine with an unmakeably short 6" intake track vs a 16" tuned to the 2nd reflection. The 6" length is a pretty smooth curve, the 16" is full of oscillation and a lot less hp because the software is assuming extra length is a flow restriction....which is probably not true for this engine but it's baked into the latest version of software (Dynomation6) but I didn't really see it in last version....when I post blue graphs they are DM5, grey are DM6
The stuff going on in the 3k-4k range is mostly header related. i have a tri-y header which effective has 2 different prime pipe lengths and 2 different collector lengths so 4 potential "tuned" rpms but as I said they come in and out of tune. Its the collector that mostly helps being up the mid and by increasing torque below the natural torque peak. Above the natural peak the shorter primary come in tune at like 7kish on its 4th reflection, then the longer pipe option (short pipe+ 1st collector) comes in tune at about 8500-9000 on the 2nd reflection and both collectors also come in tune at around 8500-9000 along with the intake to stretch out the torque curve and drive hp up. All these thing also make a useful tune at 1/2 the primary tune to 3500ish the short primaries on working well and there is a hump.
Then the next trick is mismatched stuff like the stacks in the picture or header primaries. The ripples in the graph above can be mostly removed by using slightly different lengths so you don't get an ALL good and ALL bad effect. I can get the sim software to spit out a 1000+hp estimate for this engine by tuning everything for about 11k rpm but the engine would explode and gets really peaky...all in tune makes a big number, but then its all out of tune 1000 rpm below peak. I've spread out the tuned points quite a bit and forced the hp peak as low as practical...I've not mismatched stacks yet but may if the dyno shows I have a lot of ripple up top.
Also I've not modeled a tuned air box...a 3or 4 cylinder will gain maybe 5% or so with a good air bax. A flat crank V8 can be tuned as 2 separate 4 cylinders engines (see all ferrari V8 intakes) and a V12 can be done as 3 4 cylinder ot 4 3 cylinder.....my firing order lends itself to 4 3 cylnder tuning of the air box(es) and that is on the to-do list.
In reply to Calamarii :
Yeah.....it can get confusing fast. I literally spent a coupe hundred hours running through options in the simulator to get it to where it is.
I mentioned that I'm using suzuki gsxr1300 valve train stuff. Here are the cams web offers for that bike
I looked at these and the lobes I selected are a bit more aggressive than the most aggressive option on the list....which are a race only cams. I'm not reving to 12k+ and have larger buckets so I can tolerate the valve train loads (I think) but getting those cams to work in an engine I expect to behave and idle....that took a couple hundred hours on the simulator looking at pressure waves. I sent my simulation file in with a bug report and they came back with a "wow! this is really sensitive!" and asked if they could keep the file to test new versions of the software. For examples just changing the valve lash by a couple thou costs about 20hp , kind of the opposite of "robust design" but at least the on paper numbers look great 
The candy had some advice for me.....
Tired old slicks gone, time to clean them up and see what $$ they bring so I know my budget for the new wheel project. 
i just read this thread from start to finish...
It reminds me of an old pie-eyed cartoon villain who is working on a jigsaw puzzle. He cackles while "solving" the puzzle... by cutting each piece he picks up with scissors so it fits into the next spot.... Pure evil! I tried to find the cartoon or a frame from it... but all I can offer is my account from any given Saturday morning in the 1970's.
I am blown away by the work you've put into this. And I covet your new garage!
the biggest reason for the 4x4 injector tubes on the old BBC Can-Am motors was the 2 "good" intake ports and the 2 "bad" intakes ports in each head. the intake ports were paired together like SBC's, which had valves in the order of EIIEEIIE, but BBC had a valve order of EIEIEIEI, and with the int ports paired at the manifold face, you ended up with 2 long and 2 short intake ports. the long ports turned the intake charge to create an entry in to the cylinder that created an alignment with the bore creating a perfect swirling vortex, the short ports dumped into the cylinders at an almost perfect 90 degrees to the wall and created some damn ugly eddies around the intake valves.
it was like running 2 very different V4's on the same crankshaft.
some Super Stock and Stock class drag racers, who are stuck with the old style heads have gone to such great lengths as having 2 different grinds on the same cam, matched by headers with different tube sizes for each V4, so each set of 4 cylinders have different torque peaks, giving a broader torque curve.
In reply to mke :
I noticed the bmw wheel I was actually at the tire shop because of (it looks like i may get to do some wheel welding after all...nasty crack) it just felt heavy compared to the ferrari wheels....27lbs. Its 17×8. The 550 front is 18x8.5 and 22lbs. The 18x10.5 is 25lbs. Onshape says my new 3 pc 308 looking rear with the spacer.....29lbs. The design will need some work it seems to get the weight where it should be.
In reply to OldDave :
Different stack lengths to get actual runner lengths match makes sense....as good an explanation as I've heard. I've seem cam different cylinder to cylinder, I know I saw it done on midget/mini engines to help deal with the sienesed intake ports.
None of that applies to my engine, all 12 cylinders are flow matched +/-0.5cfm which is about 0.3% or 0.6% total error. There may be more difference on the exhaust side in the headers....I was pretty focused on the tube lengths and probably should have let that slip a bit to use larger radius bends in a few spots....if dyno day ever arrives I really want to get an O2 sensor on each cylinder.....always more to do it seems.
Subscribed. This is awesome. I have no words.
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