Locost 7, which engine?

For resale, build it with what the chassis was set up for.  Paint it red.  Flip it. 

I would say you'll either sell it to a "technical person" who would care what the motor is, or an "impulsive person" who just thinks it's a cool car and wants to be seen in it.  Resale Red works for impulsive people.

Build it CHEAP, flip it, and use the proceeds to build something cool for yourself, with the motor YOU want.

I actually painted my 7 "Resale" Red" because I fully intended to flip it and build another, better one with the proceeds.  Unfortunately a lot of my gray hair came from trying to get it registered, and I don't want to ever go through that again, so I've kept it.

The Miata engine is a normal size for a DOHC engine of that capacity. It's possible to fit one in a Locost without too much effort. I know this because I have done it. An OHV will fit more easily because pushrods package well. 

If this is being built for resale, an obsolete antique British car motor that makes less horsepower than any new car on the market is going to be a tough sell. Yes, light weight makes all the difference - but if you want to make it easy to sell, you give it some horsepower or an engine people can relate to. Miata engine and trans? That means reliable with a great shifter and an appropriate look. Rotary means revs for days and small and (perceived) light weight. Duratec means reasonably modern and tunable four. Buick V6 means weird and that means you're going to scare off prospective buyers. 

Frenchy, overdrive doesn't mean tall gearing. It simply means the output shaft is turning faster than the input shaft. What this means for actual gearing depends on the final drive. The six speed used in the ND Miata and the one used in Catherhams doesn't actually have any overdrive gears, while the one in many US V8s has two overdrive ratios. They're all mated to very different rear ends. Has there been a purpose-built race car designed in this century that used less than five or even six gears?

I would think that with the typical sized tires that go on these cars an overdriven top gear would be seen as a good thing.  Also another reason why a BP or rotary Mazda engine would be my pick over a Buick.  Tires with what, a 23 inch diameter and a direct drive top gear, hooked to a Buick 231 sounds very contrived.  But I'm not a racer and maybe this makes more sense as an autocross build.

Keith, I think Loose Cannon's pink MGB build is running a T-10, so you could say that's a racer built this century with less than five forward speeds.  I could totally see this working if you have an engine with good rev range and the driveline / gearing questions were answered as a combination.  Meaning, does the engine in question have a good rev range over which it makes power, and are the rear gear + tire size a good pairing with that rev range and the trans in question, etc etc. 

I was thinking purpose-built race cars designed with a clean sheet, not modified 50-year-old sports cars :) Autocrossers are the most likely to get away with it because the speed range is relatively narrow. 

RichardSIA said:

Buick V6 is the daddy of the GM 3800 which should be familiar to everyone. 

You might want to think so, but it's not anymore. Maybe if it were Y2k it would stand a chance. The engine is well over a decade out of production, and with just a few notable exceptions was used almost exclusively in cars that are entirely forgettable today.  A Buick V6 is not a selling point to many people these days, if it ever was.

From observation it seems cars that retain the vintage look and feel sell for more than cars with drive-trains that will soon be obsolete and unsupported. No Pinto, Vega, Zetec, etc. Yes that does argue against the Suzuki's.

As I see it, the answer is a cautious 'yes and no'. Yes they want a vintage 'look and feel', but no they don't want actual vintage. There is nothing of the Buick V6 that gives either the look or feel of an old Lotus. An I4, be it OHV vs OHC, carb vs FI vs ITB, on the other hand certainly does.

Unlike you, I would argue that few buyers view 'flavor of the month' engines as a bad thing during that month. It's the flavor of the month for a reason...Because that's what people desire to buy at that point in time. So if you can knock the build out quick enough that the flavor of the month hasn't significantly changed, I'd argue that's actually the best way to go for resale. Of the engines noted, I do personally like the 215, but would definitely go with OHC/FI I4's (Suzuki/Mazda) for traditional-Locost resale, as that's what I feel most Locost (not Caterham) buyers are actually looking for. The Suzuki especially is down a bit on power though still too for what I feel most modern buyers would ideally want. The rotary could be fine too, with it's sporting pedigree, but sort of like the Buick V6 (although entirely different reasons) would mostly be so only for the 'right' buyer.

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So I'm struggling to understand the purpose of this. To exceed $10k sale price by any appreciable margin typically requires a well sorted and well done car, both mechanically and cosmetically. Even with a solid and bargain priced staring point, you're still not going to make very much money on this, especially not if you factor in even a fraction of the time, effort, and frustration involved. No matter what engine you put in it, you may very well end up sitting on it for months and/or selling it for considerably less than you'd like, unless the right buyer just happens to come along. Locosts are simply too personalized to be easy to sell at any given point in time. 

If it isn't going to be a 'keeper' project, I just don't see this contributing significantly towards progressing other ones that are. And if it doesn't, then what's the point? Figure out what you want to build for you, and just build it. Don't waste your time on something you don't actually care for or about.

You have not posted pics of how complete the Locost is, or what it's costing you to get into it.  When I was frequenting a wack of "7" forums years ago, it was rare to find a build that was under $10,000. So spending $10K to build a car that might only be worth $10K isn't really a money maker - it's just moving money around.  If you're ok with that, giv'er.

My first instinct was G13B because all the revs, weighs like 4 lbs and makes awesome noises. The second thought was a gen coupe 2.0T drivetrain. 270hp 2.0T with a 6-spd and IRS. 

Going through this thread again I'm a tad confused.

This is supposed to be a money making exercise, yet instead of just finishing the build as it was started, you seem to want to change the parameters in such a way that they likely require a lot more time to get to an end result that may or may not be more desirable to the potential customer based. How much is your time actually worth?

You seem to be fixated on Miata engines and how much you dislike them, yet the chassis is supposedly set up for a completely different engine (and presumably gearbox/rear axle).

Also, why bother even looking up how much a Miata engine costs to rebuild? When I lived in Northern Nevada up to a couple of years ago it wasn't exactly hard to find a donor Miata with the drivetrain intact or a supposedly decent engine/gearbox for less money than you're talking about for a rebuild.

Also, piling onto SkinnyG's point - most Locosts seem to be $10k cars, so in order for this to be a worthwhile commercial exercise, you really need to come in way below that (and saying "I already have this motor" doesn't count, because unless it's a boat anchor you dragged out from the depths of Walker Lake, it's still got value even if you sold it). Using the "Goblin Works Garage" rule of thumb (20% profit margin), you probably want to come in at about $8k all in so your labour is actually worth something.

How complete is this project? Is it a bare frame, or does it come with bodywork and/or a drivetrain?

Nothing wrong with building one because you want one and want to put it together exactly like you want it to, but then it's not a business opportunity and I wouldn't try to make it one.

The value of "specials" includes a fair bit of provenance, as that's what buyers have to evaluate the car. Otherwise it's just some random car built by a random guy. You see this in Seven pricing, where the Lotus and Caterham sit at the top of the pricing charts. And, by the way, the high performance/high power ones are the most valuable other than the really historically interesting ones. Then you've got Westfield and Birkin, then, near the bottom, you have the homebuilts. Some of those can be worth decent money but five digits is the exception rather than the norm as far as I can tell. Knowing what it takes to build a good Locost, you would struggle to build one for less than the resale value. You either have to cut corners and hope the new buyer doesn't notice or you have to build up to a high standard.

Note that a V6 is not a traditional engine for a Seven-style car. Stalker has been using them in their cars for a while, but pretty much only Stalker and they're not at the top of the value pile. Rotaries have a much longer history in the platform.

Also, trying to convince the market that the Miata engine is unreliable despite a few decades of evidence otherwise is going to be a challenge.

If you can't manage to engineer a good looking intake tract for a Miata engine, this is not a good project to take it. It's not hard.

In reply to RichardSIA :

gen coupe, Hyundai Genesis Coupe. 2.0T, 2.0L Theta II Turbo charged. 

I would go with something modern and basic.  Put your time into sorting it and adding some shiny bits for resale.  Literally any of the motors listed including the 1275 will be fun in the car.

I'm guessing the Locost in question is this one:  Locost

Personally, I wouldn't put a V6 or even a V8 in one (unless you can find/afford a Hartley).  I also wouldn't put an MGB motor in one, as they're bleeding heavy and don't make enough power to overcome their weight issues.  A  BMC A-series would work, but it's dated technology.  If it were my car I would be looking at the aforementioned Miata combo, or a Zetec with either a Type 9 or an RX8 gearbox, or a Toyota 4AG & T50 combo.  Of the three, the Miata is probably the easiest, the Zetec would require the adapter plate from the UK  for the RX8 'box (unless you wanted to make your own) or you'd have to find a Type 9, but both would require an aftermarket ignition set up if you wanted to use carbs.  The Toyota option would be great, but both the 4AG and the T50 are getting harder to find due to age, not to mention working out an ignition system too.  Intake manifolds are readliy available for the Zetec, and you should still be able to find a DCOE type for the 4AG, finding one for the Miata might be harder, but they're very simple to build.  Three flanges, some tube, metal glue gun and your set.  

As for resale value, Locosts are like Ikea items, once they're built people believe they're worth more than what they cost.  You would be very hard pressed to get anything over 10k for a finished one unless it has some sort of provenance.  

Edit: Just read the ad, it comes with two RX7 gearboxes, so an adapter plate and a Zetec would be an easy set up.

That's a 442, which is a surprisingly big car and larger in every way than a "normal" Seven. Fitting the Miata engine would not be difficult. Likely the same with other variants. There is much work and investment ahead for the builder, and it's going to have to be a really sweet built to crack five figures. 

Mine sold for well over $10k but it did have provenance. It didn't sell for $20k, though.

My apologies in mentioning $9000-$12,000 as the pricing.  That would be Canadian, and the high end for a good one.  I don't think I've seen many (if any) locosts go for more than $9000 US.

Miata is always the answer.

But I'll throw out a dark horse ...

Honda L15B7

200+ stock HP all day long, light, compact, ubiquitous, 350+ HP on stock internals if you want to go crazy.

Yes, you will have to fangle a RWD transmission solution.

I'm working towards putting one in my Spitfire (or GT6) (with an ex-BMW 323i Getrag 260 transmission)

Don't think an oddball choice of engines will help with sale.  I wouldn't be interested in one with a Suzuki engine.  Miata engine. All day.  Ford something or other, any day.  Just no weird choices, no Isuzu, Suzi, or other stuff.  I realize this is GRM and weird is in, but if you want to sell it when it's done, don't come up with an odd engine just because it appeals to you.  As you said the 215 Buick would be your choice.  I think it's an awesome choice, too, but your first choice and likely anyone else looking to buy won't be a Suzuki.

My experience with Suzuki customer service causes me to avoid any product with their name on it.  Had the lawsuit to prove it.

In reply to RichardSIA :

For resale reasons the closer you stick to an original Lotus 7 the better your chances of getting a good price.  
 

The original Lotus 7 even the super 7 was very light and a small engine.  It was about nimbleness not power.  You'll need to replicate that A V6 is too heavy too wide and too bulky. Yes you could add a turbo charger for more power but you're getting further and further away from what made the Lotus great in the first place.  Might I remind you what a complete failure a Lotus 30 was?   
 

You'll also want a pretty engine. In my day that would be an Offenhauser. All aluminum 4 valves per cylinder DOHC.  The Alfa Romeo would be a great engine but probably too expensive.  Jaguar's 4.0 would also be a pretty engine but too heavy and too long. 
  You need something that is stock has 4 cylinders with 4 valves per cylinder,  plenty of Aluminum to polish and a manual transmission behind it. 
 

The Suzuki just doesn't have the respect and support something like the Toyota does. 
 

In reply to frenchyd :

How about a V12?

In reply to Racingsnake :

Thank  you,  while I'm going to sorta make a version of a locost  out of a MGTD and V12. It's silly stupid for my pleasure only. 
  Nobody else will want it. Engine is too big, too heavy, and too long. 

RichardSIA said:

I'm searching for a Weber-Miata 1.8 intake. I know they WERE made but not seeing any now. Probably have to look at my Japanese sites. 

I do seem to recall some fake Lotus/Miata valve covers having been made in the UK, no idea where to get one.

If I can locate Weber or (Maybe) an ITB set-up for the Miata 1.8 it becomes a contender. But not with the stock giant aluminum kitchen sink hanging from it. 

As mentioned this version is a bit oversize and even a SBF can be made to fit. Gave up my Kent 1600 when I let the Marcos go, DOH! 

No luck finding another Suzy 13B DOHC at any price. ITB's or Weber for the 13B are easy to get.

I have a lead on a Lotus 907 (JH) engine which would probably suit ME but no one else.  

I do have a Triumph GT6 engine and trans but pretty certain it would be too long.

The Triumph is Too long,  too heavy, and stupidly low power. In the same space you could put a Jaguar 4.0 save about 150+ pounds and have nearly triple the power. 

PS that Jag engine is stupidly cheap because they are so reliable there is no demand for them 

We're not planning to build this car for profit anymore, are we. ITBs are fantastic if set up well but are not cheap. They'll cost 10% of the resale value of the car and will make the tuning a lot more difficult than just using a stock ECU. Putting carbs on is announcing to the world that EFI is hard.

Here's what the stock Miata intake manifold looks like in a Locost. I did go to ITBs later because my garage is the sort of place that has them sitting on the shelf, but it wasn't for aesthetics.

Size reference of a non-442 and an SIIa.

Here's a link to a DCOE bananafold for a Miata:  DCOE

DanST also does various intake flanges for the Miata motors in both mild steel and Aluminium:  Steel Flange

But, if your clever, I'm certain you could find someone in your area to either waterjet or laser cut a flange using a tracing or gasket.  The DCOE flanges are/were available from Pierce Manifolds.  I have a set in aluminium sitting on the shelf that are of no real use to me, but they're north of the 49th.

RichardSIA said:

Not sure what the Jag 4.0 really is but I bet it never had anything to do with Coventry England. Is that the one that looks like a SOHC design? Actually a Ford?

Miata 1.8, Suzuki 1.6, or yah, the Buick V6 seem the be the remaining contenders. Others are just too modern/complex/weird for me.

No it's a honest Jaguar design pre Ford.  It's all aluminum ( head block etc.) 4 valves per cylinder DOHC in line 6 cylinder used in A lot of Jaguars in the 1990's and even into the 2000's. It looks beautiful. It's elegant and even a little classic looking. The mildest form has  260 horsepower or so. Before you turn your nose up at 250 horsepower realize that with the new net horsepower ratings it's more powerful than a Chevy 464. ( a very powerful neighborhood indeed) Very, very, reliable and durable. It even had an optional manual transmission behind it although those are hens teeth this side of the Atlantic. 
It's the design the Chevy Atlas motor is patterned after  ( started out as a 3.6 liter, a few years in they made it 4.0 and it remained at that size although GM increased it  to bring it up to 4.2. ) and comes in a Eaton supercharged form. 360 horsepower I think. Pulley change and it's well into 400 horsepower net ( as installed ) 
Weight  wise  it's probably near 300 pounds and is about 32 inches long from flywheel to front pulley. 

4.0 inline six in an XJ? I've got one of those ;)