Mom's 280Z

I'm too distracted by your shop to pay attention to the project at hand.  You need a sign on the wall that says, My car is over here boys.  It's like trying to listen to my wife talk while she is changing her shirt.

Love the car too.

NOHOME said:

Judging by the toolbox acquisition rate, this project is not budget limited to any great extent.

 

Pete

Does that mean I'm kicked out? :(

Of course, "limited to any great extent" is wildly subjective. This project certainly is budget limited. So far the only money I've spent is to have it shipped from CA, although I hope to make some choice acquisitions in the next couple of weeks.

The toolboxes are property of the shop and it's beneficial shareholders, not me. I'm just a squatter with an undue amount of bad influence :)

akylekoz said:

  It's like trying to listen to my wife talk while she is changing her shirt.

Agreed.  I haven't heard a word your wife has ever said while changing her shirt.

In reply to badwaytolive :

Not meant in a negative way! More just an observation that someone seems to be able to populate the shop with every dream-tool I can imagine. Is this just a hobby shop or is it going to be production focused in some capacity?

Pete

AngryCorvair said:

akylekoz said:

  It's like trying to listen to my wife talk while she is changing her shirt.

Agreed.  I haven't heard a word your wife has ever said while changing her shirt.

 

Hahahahaha  Dude, when are you coming back down to the Challenge? I miss your charm and wit!

Workday: 13, Days Since Delivery: 148

After a brief pause for Nik's wedding, I was able to track down what I hope will be the engine. A VK56DE from a 2005 Nissan Titan whose 118k mile life was cut short due to a front end collision. Here it is at the recycler, looking just a bit worse for the wear:

There are some things I like about it and some things I don't, but I'm not going to count any chickens until it's on a stand in the shop. In fact, I arranged for Nik to meet me at the recycler with his truck to help me get it back to the shop. I checked it over and turned it over with a 3/8" ratchet handle to verify that it's not seized or freewheeling. 

"We'll take it."

"Okay, when do you want to pick it up?"

"Wait, what do you mean? Now. We're here with the truck. Now. Now is good."

"Oh, not possible, it's going to take hours to get to it with our forklift moving stuff around, then it needs drained and cleaned."

"........"

After some more back and forth and tears from me, I put down a deposit and agreed to come back for it another day. So frustrating.

I apologized to Nik for wasting his time, and we drove back to his place; by the time we got back, we'd spent over 2 hours just driving around in Houston 5pm traffic with nothing to show for it. Bad scene dude.

With the engine plans shot for the night, I decided to address the passenger side of the engine bay. There was stuff to remove, so I did.

Before:

After:

Not particularly exciting stuff, but it's done.

The car is in pretty good shape comparatively, but not showroom quality.

I'll get the engine soon, hopefully, and we can see what kind of shape it's actually in. Hopefully.

It will go here. Ish.

damen

Workdays: 14, Days Since Delivery: 155

Engine Pick-up Day

I called a day in advance this time to make sure the motor was ready for pick-up.

It was.

So I left work, drove an hour to Nik's, picked up his truck, then drove an hour to the auto-recycler northeast of town. The engine was indeed ready to go, nice and clean. They'd taped up the electrical bits and vacuum ports and pressure washed it. The man at the counter was kind enough to offer me an old tire in which to set the engine for transport.

Thank goodness; I'd brought 20 little different shaped pieces of wood and 10 ratchet straps. Engines are a tedious shape and weight to strap down. A tire to sit in made it 100x easier.

It seemed like maybe they'd done this a time or two. There was a strap (well, old piece of seatbelt) across the top of the motor that allowed them to move it around on a forklift. Set it in the back of the truck, two straps, boom. Ready to roll.

Another hour of driving back to Nik's.

Just kidding, 1.5 hours because of Houston 5pm traffic and an unfortunate accident in my path. I eventually made it back.

Nik has a really sweet forklift/stacker that made the job of getting this out of the truck and onto the stand as easy as it could be. 

It definitely felt like cheating.

It took some time to find the (3) M14 x 1.5 bolts to thread into the bellhousing for the engine stand, but once again, Nik's collection came through.

Engine on the stand, with a picture of the front for reference. I can imagine I'll be back to look at this photo. Note, this motor came out of a front-end-collision truck, so the bracket holding the fan pulley/clutch is broken off. That thing sticks way out, so not too surprising.

The coolant line just to the right (driver's side) of the harmonic dampener normally doesn't sit that close; the brackets holding it were also bent in the collision. That line feeds the oil/coolant heat exchanger to which the oil filter screws. I'll be doing an exterior oil cooler, so I won't be reusing that part.

With the massively long intake runners designed for the high-torque truck application of this motor, this is one tall package. I won't be using the oil pan or the intake manifold, so the height will be much less to fit into the 280.

The big bracket on the passenger's side, next to the tensioner, holds the power steering pump. I'm currently undecided on power steering, but if I do implement it, I'll be doing an electric setup that doesn't need to sit on the engine. So that will go, too.

I have a 90-day guarantee on the motor. I'm going to try to get it running on a stand in that time period, but I don't really like my odds. That is August 1. The issue is that I want to try to get it running on a standalone ECU.

Which I don't have.

And I've never used.

But hey, goals, right?

We had a bit of extra time left, so we did a compression test. One of the attractive things about this particular motor is that it came with a lot of items that are frequently not included. Starter, flex plate, ignition coils, injectors, intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust manifolds, O2 sensors, etc. So I pulled the coils and the spark plugs. The #7 coil came apart as I pulled it, but it doesn't seem terminal- are they supposed to come apart?

The plugs all looked good. A nice toasted marshmallow color.

We proceeded to get a battery and jumper cables hooked up to the starter. Nik pulled out a variable power supply to trigger the solenoid, but it was limited to 3.0A, which wasn't enough to trigger the solenoid. The wire isn't that big- what is the current draw to get the solenoid to engage? Maybe I'll try to measure someday.

Anyhow, we ended up using a screwdriver to jump the solenoid, which engaged the starter, but the motor would just barely spin. Here's the setup:

We stopped for some dinner.

After dinner, we came back, put 5 qts of oil in (the recyclers had drained it before delivery) and screwed the compression tester into cylinder #1. 

We jumped it again and the motor would wind around to the compression stroke on #1 and stop. Then barely make it over the top and spin until the compression stroke on #1 again. And stop, then barely make it....etc.

The motor had been sitting on a shelf for 6 months so it's possible the rings and walls were dry. We elected to do a wet compression test. I put about a tablespoon of oil into each cylinder and we tried again.

Nope, still wouldn't spin nicely.

Bad battery?

We switched to a good monster battery out of the forklift.

Nope, still wouldn't spin nicely.

At that point, we figured it must be bad contacts. Nik dug out some short leads with screw-on terminals (Nik's stash FTW again) and we bolted them onto the battery and the motor.

Whoa! Now it was turning over like it should. Check your contacts, folks.

Side note, the starter/ring gear in action was deafening, so I put on some ear protection. Is that normal?

With that sorted, we were able to go around and test the compression on all the cylinders. It came out something like this:

1: 232 psi

2: 240

3: 250

4: 250

5: 275

6: 240 

7: 225

8: 240

I'm not sure what to make of the actual numbers, what do you guys think?

I was happy to see no major problems. We'll take it.

We were out of time for the night, but I wanted to take a quick measurement now that I had the motor. How far "behind" the firewall would it protrude?

The tape sticking out is 25", about the length of the motor front-to-back. I want it sitting fully behind the strut towers. The front of the tape is where I want the front of the motor, so the answer is:

5 inches.

The firewall will need to move at least 5" back. That sounds like a lot more than I was thinking and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Is that too much? Normal? Fine?

I have a feeling once the transmission is in place, I'll have to hire somebody to sit in the back hatch area to shift for me.

Either way, I feel very happy to have the engine in the shop. I wasn't looking forward to all the logistics of getting to this point, so I'm glad it's done.

My next step is to get an OEM wiring harness from which to harvest the connectors, then put an order in for an ECU and universal wiring harness.

Thanks for reading.

damen

Why are you so set on the engine being that far back? 

Pete

Agreed. Let the shifter and oil pan speak. No need for that much rear offset with a v8, at least with 5.0 and sbc. They already give much closer to 50/50

As far as ecm, find a local tuner first. Then find what he prefers and get that. 

Advice i didn't take but should have.

NOHOME said:

Why are you so set on the engine being that far back? 

 

Pete

Weight distribution and lower polar moment of inertia?

I think 45% front and 55% rear would be good for distribution. I'm not sure what the math looks like for the PMOI, but getting the big weight(s) toward the center is the idea, I think.

I'm certainly happy to be told otherwise, though!

damen

Dusterbd13 said:

Agreed. Let the shifter and oil pan speak. No need for that much rear offset with a v8, at least with 5.0 and sbc. They already give much closer to 50/50

I can appreciate this, although I'm not sure what you mean by "need".

Would the handling be worse with the engine further back? Or are you saying the improvement would not be worth the effort? I assume it's more of the second, in which case I can see your point. Unfortunately, without doing a version of each, we will just never know.

I'm not 100% settled on the placement yet, but let's say I don't think it's looking good for the firewall :)

damen

Dusterbd13 said:

As far as ecm, find a local tuner first. Then find what he prefers and get that. 

Advice i didn't take but should have.

This is exactly what I've done. I hope to place the order next week.

damen

Correct. The reduction in polar moment (minimal) and weight bias change (5% tops. More like 1-2% for the extra 3 inches) dont justify the effort. 

What are you looking to OWN at the end of this? Gutted track car? All around driver?

In reply to badwaytolive :

The physics I  am well aware of. Unless we use a scaling factor of  "Cause I just think its cool", My math says that the getting ain't gonna be worth the going in the case of moving the firewall back that far.  Whatever the dynamic differences might be, they are going to (potentially) come at the cost of ergonomic compromises. The challenge is to not end up with a better driving machine that you wont like driving.

Pete

Will the 5.6 even fit between the strut towers?

I know the 4.5 Infiniti V8 just barely fit  with about 1/2” to spare at the cam covers in a 73 240Z shell (friend did the swap about 8 years ago).  Took quite a bit of engineering to make things fit.  

Good luck with the build

Gordon

Usually, with something like this, there is no shortage of ambition and any effort to reduce how much ambition will be required will only help get it on the road quickly.  

The amount of time work and cost to move the firewall for anything other than a dedicated track car being competitively campaigned, imho, is most definitely not worth it. 

Dusterbd13 said:

Correct. The reduction in polar moment (minimal) and weight bias change (5% tops. More like 1-2% for the extra 3 inches) dont justify the effort. 

What are you looking to OWN at the end of this? Gutted track car? All around driver?

Justify the effort? I'm pretty sure I'm not qualified to give a lecture on cognitive dissonance theory, but I see your point. What is the point of the effort? What measurements will be used to determine success? Will moving the engine that far back affect these measurements?

I look at this project as being just as much about the journey as the destination, so the effort IS the justification, if that makes sense.

It definitely is not going to be a gutted track car. I do want it to be a great track car, though. There will be some sort of cage.

I'm really focused on the engine. I have big plans for it. 

I want to test and build and test aero components. I want to test and modify and test suspension components. I want to log it all and share. I want a really fast car that's enjoyable enough on the street to take on a day trip. Or on One Lap. I want it to look good and sound even better.

I understand if nobody thinks I'll ever get anywhere with this sort of scope. The annals of automotive history are jam packed with abandoned projects that started just like this.

I endeavour to not join them.

damen

NOHOME said:

In reply to badwaytolive :

The physics I  am well aware of. Unless we use a scaling factor of  "Cause I just think its cool", My math says that the getting ain't gonna be worth the going in the case of moving the firewall back that far.  Whatever the dynamic differences might be, they are going to (potentially) come at the cost of ergonomic compromises. The challenge is to not end up with a better driving machine that you wont like driving.

 

Pete

Well stated. 

You've smashed the nail clean on the head here. This whole project is just because I think it's cool.

Otherwise, I'd just buy a GT-R and call it a day.

damen

ggarrard said:

Will the 5.6 even fit between the strut towers?

I know the 4.5 Infiniti V8 just barely fit  with about 1/2” to spare at the cam covers in a 73 240Z shell (friend did the swap about 8 years ago).  Took quite a bit of engineering to make things fit.  

Good luck with the build

Gordon

Hi Gordon-

Is there a build thread on your friend's 240/VH45 build? I'd love to see it. I'm sure I could learn some good stuff.

Early indications are that yes, it will fit. I know of at least one S30 that has this engine in it. McKinney Motorsports in SoCal put one into a 240Z/GTO replica build.

I was going to say it's going to take a lot of hacking to get it in, but I like how you say it better.

Thanks!

damen

jfryjfry said:

Usually, with something like this, there is no shortage of ambition and any effort to reduce how much ambition will be required will only help get it on the road quickly.  

The amount of time work and cost to move the firewall for anything other than a dedicated track car being competitively campaigned, imho, is most definitely not worth it. 

I'm starting to see a pattern here :)

Ironically, cutting the firewall and installing a V8 would make the car ineligible for most any competitive class.

damen

Damen ... Sorry, no build thread that I know of.  He used a 73 shell with the vh45 hooked to a Camaro 6 speed and the r300 from the Infiniti.  Steering was linked thru a Pathfinder steering box to the 240 rack in order to clear the exhaust manifold.   He tracked the car for a couple of seasons then sold it to someone in eastern Canada. I unfortunately lost touch with him since we disbanded the Z club... and he moved into BMW M3s etc.

Gordon

In reply to ggarrard :

Cheers, Gordon-

Too bad it wasn't documented; sounds like a tremendous build!

Workdays: 15, Days Since Delivery: 160

Not a huge amount of visible progress, but I've made the decision to try to get the VK56 running on an engine test stand.

I spent practically the whole session just removing unnecessary bits and pieces off the motor, then measuring and documenting what little pieces I need to get to allow it to run. Hoses, clamps, bolts, belts, etc.

I did put the L28 + automatic transmission for sale on CL. If anybody here is interested, it has 127k miles and a leaky headgasket.

I won't be running power steering off the crank (if at all), nor a/c, nor a fan pulley, so I measured for a serpentine belt to run on the new pulley configuration for the test stand. I will have an alternator, but not for the test stand, so that was left out of the measurement. Just the crank, water pump, and tensioner. Short belt.

I'm going to try the Walmart (!) engine test stand to start. I'll have to fab up some sort of engine mount adapter, but I won't do that until the stand is together.

It's proving more difficult than I'd hoped to get an ECU ordered. I want to use a local shop / AEM dealer, but when I call to get a quote, they always ask what car it's for. The conversation sort of degrades into them not being terribly interested in supporting this particular project because nobody has ever worked with this engine and they'll call me back. Which they don't.

If I can't get someone interested enough to help me put together a quote, I'll just order from JEG's or something?

damen

Does anybody have any feedback on MegaSquirt MS3Pro Ultimate vs AEM Infinity 708? 

I like the AEM for built in dual-wideband controllers, 4-wheel traction control, more inputs, faster processor, and better support.

I like the Megasquirt because it's half the price :)

damen

Message MadScientistMatt he's a tech for DIYAutotune to see if anyone has worked with a MS3 for your application. He'll get you straightened out.