Great work you're doing; kinda motivating me to get out there and get my project wired 
Grease is a great preservative, so it's not too surprising how nice it is underneath!
Great work you're doing; kinda motivating me to get out there and get my project wired Grease is a great preservative, so it's not too surprising how nice it is underneath!
corsepervita wrote:
hmmmm triple row timing chain to drive the cams?? I wonder what the mass of all that equipment is????
Brainfart - You have no reason to build that engine to rev higher.... that much spinning mass doesn't typically play well with high rpm sudden rpm changes.... meaning that there is no reason to get it to spin higher rpm, as it might ingest itself trying.....
The discussion has been on improving things with use of modern fuel and ignition control. Along with those improvements we have been discussing bumping power with a compression bump - O/S pistons, and maybe a slightly taller crown????
Ok, what about taking the cams to a cam grinder.... and REDUCING the duration a few degrees(intake valve closing event) ....(272 down to 268) KEEP all the lift, just have the ramps/flanks ground a little, that... along with a 1/2 point bump in static compression will be a more substantial increase in the DCR - the effect should be more low end, better mid range, and no loss @ the top end.
Brainfart over........
sobe_death wrote: Great work you're doing; kinda motivating me to get out there and get my project wired
Go get'r'done! I love reading other build threads on here, this forum is great!
oldeskewltoy wrote:corsepervita wrote:hmmmm triple row timing chain to drive the cams?? I wonder what the mass of all that equipment is????
Yeah I don't think I want to make it rev any higher, I agree. That may not go so well on the chain system. The mass is certainly pretty heavy.
I'm not entirely certain what the stock cam degrees are, i'll have to look them up. Low and mid range improvement is never a bad thing to have, especially if it won't affect the top end. Cam timing is one thing I understand a little bit, but have never really played with because I've never needed to. Or rather, not had an engine I really felt like doing it to.
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hmmmm triple row timing chain to drive the cams??
Or is that an idler sprocket? Single chain from the crank, double up to the cam (or vice versa)? This engine re-softens my fontanelle- in a good way. Thanks one and all for the education.
My teenage self lusted heavily after a Jalpa- more unique, and cheaper than the Countach, and thusly more attainable to a 14 year old with no job.. Aaah, naivety
wheelsmithy wrote: <blockquo hmmmm triple row timing chain to drive the cams?? Or is that an idler sprocket? Single chain from the crank, double up to the can(or vice versa)? This engine re-softens my fontanelle- in a good way. Thanks one and all for the education. My teenage self lusted heavily after a Jalpa- more unique, and cheaper than the Countach, and thusly more attainable to a 14 year old with no job.. Aaah, naivety
The chains have one pulley per cam. The bigass pulleys you see in the middle are idlers. Tensioners sit on the sides of the chain case. Let me see if i can find a photo before i yanked it apart for ya.
I mean you aren't wrong either... compared to a countach a Jalpa is cheap. Getting into the engine work is another story. But still... I had always wanted one.
Ok here we go.
So the way this one works is there is a drive gear off the crank. Another larger gear that is turned by that which is on one of the idlers (it's free floating), and another one on the opposite side that drives the other idler. That turns the chains, which turns the cams, etc. It's an awful lot of mass doing it.
My buddy wanted to work on it with me, so here's a better zoomed out photo when we were working on the chain cover. You can see everything in place including the chains.
And just because.
This hasn't been active for a while, but FWIW, Elgin has cam listings for V8 & V12'S Lamborghinis
this is all really cool
I can't help but wonder if the guys who designed this stuff ever took any other engine apart. I get the feeling, that if they did, they'd go "oooooooooohh, I get it now!"
Car is going to be sick. I've always loved the Jalpa's ever since I was a kid. Always loved the Countach's, that's what I alway remember sitting in my dad's office downstairs, but the Jalpa looked even more appealing in it's own way for some reason. Good luck on the swap. I rarely take the time to check out what else is going on in the GRM build threads but I'm glad I did today.
Sorry for the delay guys, life got in the way. I have a huge list of updates to post. Currently sipping on some wine and dealing with some random life stuff. Will try to get the updates posted tonight or tomorrow.
Good news: Cylinders are done and will be on the way next week. Pistons are here. Gaskets on the way. Bearings are all here. Engine should be on the dyno this fall.
Ok, so... update.
So the sleeves/cylinders were sent off to L.A. sleeve a while ago. I was told they would be done this week, but apparently their project manager neglected to tell everyone he was sending one of their machinists on vacation, so they'll be finished next week. Not a huge deal, kind of meh communication but hey, it's better than ordering cylinders at the factory.
We ended up going with a bore size of 3.390"
The pistons were sent off to JE to get them custom made. Had a bit of a snafu with things getting mixed up. Ended up getting a ferrari piston back and then got piston rings for a 3.930" instead of 3.390" - We ended up getting it all sorted. The owner of the ferrari piston has his piston back and I have my sample back.
Here's the original vs new
I am not worthy to comment on a mechanical level – although a "Lamborghini Misc" has always been one of my dream cars – but on a human level I'd love to see a transcript of the whole "The owner of the Ferrari piston has his piston back" saga. Twenty bucks says that the sentences "You what?" and "Okay, just to clarify..." were each used at least once.
Any idea how the stock piston vs. JE custom piston weights compare??
I never thought I would say this: those pistons are beautiful!
einy wrote: Any idea how the stock piston vs. JE custom piston weights compare??
was going to ask this very question.... (294 grams on JE pkg) in addition... if I can persuade corsepervita to get a mass of both piston, and pin. The piston photos do show some difference... but the pin photo shows a significant difference.....
in addition the rings are thinner and likely lower tension... = more power!
Stealthtercel wrote: I am not worthy to comment on a mechanical level – although a "Lamborghini Misc" has always been one of my dream cars – but on a human level I'd love to see a transcript of the whole "The owner of the Ferrari piston has his piston back" saga. Twenty bucks says that the sentences "You what?" and "Okay, just to clarify..." were each used at least once.
Yeah, the only thing I can really think of in the mix up is that whoever was in shipping went, "Oh this is that ferrari" and mixed up ferrari and lamborghini. Essentially, the guy who runs superformance in the UK seems to have sent off a ferrari piston for a ferrari 330. So I received my custom pistons and then the sample piston ended up being a piston for a ferrari 330 intended to go to this guy in the UK.
Along with his box was some stationary with a note addressed to JE and I went, "Hey this guy has his email on there...." I emailed him along with JE, they sent me a label and went, "MAH BAD!" and then sent me mine. I knew something was up when i noticed it was a completely different shape on the piston head. Everyone was really understanding about it and the guy in the UK (I think his name was Colin) bounced me an email and we got it all figured out. Sounds like he was in the same boat I am which is, "Good luck finding stock stuff, makes more sense to go aftermarket!" nice guy.
einy wrote: Any idea how the stock piston vs. JE custom piston weights compare??
The weight of the piston on the box is 294 grams. Now, that isn't including the rings or the pin. My mechanic weighed both and I cannot remember quite exactly where it was but I want to say we were just shy of 400 grams.
I'll get some exact numbers when I get back to the machine shop this next week. I have more parts to drop off to him. What I can tell you is that the weight difference between the JE pistons AND pins together is 26 grams of difference. 26 grams lighter than stock. Issue is, I will need to rebalance everything and I was honestly hoping that we would be close enough to stock not to worry about it. But the good part of this is, less moving mass and a chance to balance things even better than they were before with modern machining.
dculberson wrote: I never thought I would say this: those pistons are beautiful!
I love them! I almost want to just hang them up as art, but that'd defeat the purpose LOL.
oldeskewltoy wrote:einy wrote: Any idea how the stock piston vs. JE custom piston weights compare??was going to ask this very question.... (294 grams on JE pkg) in addition... if I can persuade corsepervita to get a mass of both piston, and pin. The piston photos do show some difference... but the pin photo shows a significant difference..... in addition the rings are thinner and likely lower tension... = more power!
Yes, the rings are thinner and lighter. As I said in the above reply to Einy, the weight difference between stock vs JE is 26 grams. Well, I think we were just shy of 26 grams. Like 25.8 or something. I'll get exact numbers of comparisons between each (pins, rings, pistons etc). Regardless, that is a huge decrease in weight.
With this we've bored it out, lightened things, will rebalance things, added material to the heads to properly flow them near the seats, etc. By the time this is done, this is going to be such a better engine over stock.
This is super awesome.
Anyway, if I had a small displacement V8 with a super heavy valvetrain, a stout and lightweight bottom end and the desire for more mid range power, I'd think awfully hard about offset welding the crank and getting a longer stroke.
A surprising lack of attention to detail from a company that should have great attention to detail. Glad it's all sorted out and that you're not on a short timeline.
Petrolburner wrote: A surprising lack of attention to detail from a company that should have great attention to detail. Glad it's all sorted out and that you're not on a short timeline.
JE Piston is now part of a group of companies(PMI)... my recent set of pistons... came through with a Wiseco heading in the emailed invoice
Petrolburner wrote: A surprising lack of attention to detail from a company that should have great attention to detail. Glad it's all sorted out and that you're not on a short timeline.
Yeah, stuff happens I guess. Nothing that has ruined my build, but I am fairly disappointed that it all happened in a short period of time.
oldeskewltoy wrote:Petrolburner wrote: A surprising lack of attention to detail from a company that should have great attention to detail. Glad it's all sorted out and that you're not on a short timeline.JE Piston is now part of a group of companies(PMI)... my recent set of pistons... came through with a Wiseco heading in the emailed invoice
Yeah, Wiseco is also on my invoiced stuff if I remember correctly. I think they're essentially one and the same. Still, sending someone the wrong sample and wrong rings and getting the weight wrong is... not exactly a newbie mistake lol. It'll all be fine though. Engine will get rebalanced and the other parts showed up so it's gravy.
corsepervita wrote: Yeah, the only thing I can really think of in the mix up is that whoever was in shipping went, "Oh this is that ferrari" and mixed up ferrari and lamborghini. Essentially, the guy who runs superformance in the UK seems to have sent off a ferrari piston for a ferrari 330. So I received my custom pistons and then the sample piston ended up being a piston for a ferrari 330 intended to go to this guy in the UK. Along with his box was some stationary with a note addressed to JE and I went, "Hey this guy has his email on there...." I emailed him along with JE, they sent me a label and went, "MAH BAD!" and then sent me mine. I knew something was up when i noticed it was a completely different shape on the piston head. Everyone was really understanding about it and the guy in the UK (I think his name was Colin) bounced me an email and we got it all figured out. Sounds like he was in the same boat I am which is, "Good luck finding stock stuff, makes more sense to go aftermarket!" nice guy.
Nice to see you're making a friend across the pond!
Wet Sleeve engine yah I love them !! played with them as used in 50's to 80's Peugeots, 403, 404, 504, 505 series. Aside from the obvious problems coolants of the era caused, I would pick the head gasket failure as lack of liner protrusion. There should be a spec for this, normally achieved using gaskets at the base of the liner. In PSA engines this was also a cooling system seal. As such common to see water in oil, we popped the sump off and pressurized the cooling system to eyeball the leak. So basically measure height of liner from seat to top, measure block from liner seat to deck. In this case I would check that liner seats are parallel to crank centre line and block deck, then with square seats deck the block to correct liner protrusion. Shimming liner, as usual, to correct protrusion maybe difficult... Not sure where you would get the shims :( Twenty years on I would contact loctite and source a sealant for the liner seat. Our solution was a bit basic, hard setting gasket cement...these where budget rebuilds lol. With a modern gasket, a waterless coolant and correct liner protrusion I reckon the head gasket will be bulletproof.
Just wanted to say this thread is so far over my head it rediculous. I still keep reading it though!
So awesome that you're taking something that has no set path and easy upgrade options and making it new again. Keep it up, sir.
acheron64 wrote: Wet Sleeve engine yah I love them !! played with them as used in 50's to 80's Peugeots, 403, 404, 504, 505 series. Aside from the obvious problems coolants of the era caused, I would pick the head gasket failure as lack of liner protrusion. There should be a spec for this, normally achieved using gaskets at the base of the liner. In PSA engines this was also a cooling system seal. As such common to see water in oil, we popped the sump off and pressurized the cooling system to eyeball the leak. So basically measure height of liner from seat to top, measure block from liner seat to deck. In this case I would check that liner seats are parallel to crank centre line and block deck, then with square seats deck the block to correct liner protrusion. Shimming liner, as usual, to correct protrusion maybe difficult... Not sure where you would get the shims :( Twenty years on I would contact loctite and source a sealant for the liner seat. Our solution was a bit basic, hard setting gasket cement...these where budget rebuilds lol. With a modern gasket, a waterless coolant and correct liner protrusion I reckon the head gasket will be bulletproof.
Yeah I am going to end up going with a gasket from Cometic. Other people who have had their Jalpa motors rebuilt went that route to avoid future head gasket issues and have had ZERO issues. Unfortunately still waiting on the final block and head measurements to know what thickness to go for.
Scooter wrote: Just wanted to say this thread is so far over my head it rediculous. I still keep reading it though! So awesome that you're taking something that has no set path and easy upgrade options and making it new again. Keep it up, sir.
Thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I love sharing this stuff with people. Cars are a huge passion for me and I've wanted a Jalpa since I was a little kid. Feels like a dream come true to bring one back to life with such an interesting past. That and this forum is full of car people who don't judge and love talking cars, and I love it here. This is one of the few forums I've stuck around. There's maybe 2 other forums I post on. LamboPower and here, and an old porsche 924/944 forum, but not nearly as much as I used to.
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