Volvo P1800ES...kinda

http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-310689.html

Go with aluminum.

tuna55 wrote: http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-310689.html Go with aluminum.

Not going to happen unless I wil a lottery and then I would go back to the original plan of running the FM Getrag system. This one is paid for and in the garage!

Besides, the weight is down low and in the back. Being a Station Wagon, I have afeeling that wont be all bad.

Keep in mind also that this being the great white north, the availability of parts is not what you guys are used to. Crossing the border adds about 50% to the final cost.

Copied some text from an article that describes just why the P1800 makes such a lousy V8 swap candidate.

I am pining my hopes on the Volvo front suspension being the main obstcle. Going the holman Moody method would have wipped out the entire ventilation and wiper systems along with killing 1/3 of the footroom.

Text and pictures from John Parker of Vintage Performance Developments:

"Back in '63, Robert Cumberford was an automotive designer working for Holman and Moody, the legendary race car builders largely associated with Ford stock car projects. Now he's an editor at Automobile magazine. In an editorial in the May 1999 issue of that magazine, he described how close we came to having a factory-produced Ford V8 powered Volvo 1800(?).

In the early '60s he drove a 544, but admired the styling of the new P1800 and had the idea of putting the then-new small Ford V8 in it and making "a line of seriously fast GTs, at seriously competitive prices." It would have the added advantage of alleviating a shortage of the B18 engines and enhancing Volvo's image in the U.S. He pitched the idea to Jim LaMarre at Volvo's North American headquarters. The idea was well received, so, with LaMarre's encouragement, he went back to Holman and Moody and built a prototype.

In order to clear the front suspension and front cross member, the engine was pushed far back in the chassis. This required that the firewall and transmission tunnel be cut out in order to clear the V8 and attached automatic transmission. The exhaust manifolds had to be switched around for sufficient clearance, with the left one being from a Falcon Sprint and the right one being the left side manifold from a 289 Galaxie. The battery was moved to the trunk, and the heater unit moved to the original battery location. A rectangular tube was welded in at the top of the firewall to enhance structural rigidity, which may have been weakened by removing the center section of the firewall and original transmission tunnel. New transmission mounts and supports had to be fabricated, and a one-piece, shortened Galaxie drive shaft was used. The stock Dana 27 rear end was retained, with the ratio changed to 3.07. Cumberford had determined that since the Dana 27 was used without problems in the Studebaker Champion with a V8, it had a sufficient rating to handle the torque of the Ford as long as a suitable axle ratio was used.

Upon completion, Cumberford took the car to the Ford Proving Grounds in Michigan for testing by Ford. After passing various tests, the idea was apparently approved by Ford. The car was then driven to Volvo's North American Headquarters in New Jersey, where it was presented to Volvo's chief executive, Gunnar Engellau, during his next visit. Engellau was Volvo's CEO from 1956 through 1971, and is credited with making "the Volvo name synonymous with safety, quality, durability and value " He personally tested the car quite vigorously, and acknowledged its performance, but felt that if P1800s came into the U.S. without motors and then had Fords installed, "People will think there is something wrong with our motor." That put an end to the project. A few years later, Cumberford sold the car. It was last thought to be somewhere in Iowa and no one knows what has happened to it.

Mitch Duncan of Genuine Classic Parts was able to confirm Cumberford's version of the story through other long-term Volvo NA employees. His information indicated the car was purchased by a Volvo NA employee and was around the New Jersey headquarters for years before eventually disappearing. But that's not quite the end of the story.

The entire process of the V8 conversion by Holman and Moody was detailed in an article that appeared in the December '64 issue of Hot Rod magazine. (Thanks to Ebay, I have two copies.) With this type of exposure, others just had to try it. A Colorado Volvo dealer did a conversion based on the Hot Rod article. That car was later purchased by Daryl Payne, and is now under restoration in the Midwest. Two brothers in California started another conversion, and it was later finished by Dale and Larry Rembold in Oregon. It is currently pictured on VSA's website photo gallery. In addition to the V8, it features an independent rear suspension from a '66 Corvette. It also differs from the original version in that it has a four-speed Borg Warner T10 standard transmission. Although Dale is quite enthusiastic about the car's 6.5 second 0 60 performance, he does not recommend the conversion. "The bottom line is, the 1800 is not a friendly candidate for any V8 conversion." Don Bair of San Diego has been compiling extensive information and planning an improved conversion. There is even a convertible 1800 V8 out there, and who knows how many other started or completed conversions. (If you know of any others, or the location of the original Holman and Moody/Cumberford car, please let me know.)

Unfortunately, none of the conversions seem to be entirely satisfactory. The acceleration is a real thrill, and the power and high speed cruise ability make them appealing. But there are problems. In order for the front sump Ford engine to clear the crossmember, it has be placed way back in the chassis. This places the back of the engine behind the firewall; so far back that the rearmost spark plugs are changed from an access hole inside the passenger compartment.

The worst part may be the degree to which an 1800 has to be cut up to accommodate the engine and transmission. (See the photos.) There are problems of having sufficient room for the exhaust system, and excessive heat in the car. There are restrictions in the room available for the driver's and passenger's feet. As a result, the pedals are offset to the left with the brake pedal where the clutch pedal would be (part of the reason for an automatic). If a rear-sump version of the Ford V8 is used, the engine can be mounted farther forward, but then there are clearance problems with the front suspension. Most people familiar with the conversions based on the '64 design believe they need further refinement, but the dream of a Cobra-like Volvo still lives in these existing conversions.

My personal reaction is that I would love to try out one of these V8 1800s, and am still intrigued with the idea of building one. On the other hand, my research reinforces the conclusion I reached a year ago that this or any other type of engine swap is a BIG project, far beyond the scope of most of us, and may not be worth the effort involved. From my point of view as a race car driver, it's obvious that significant modifications to the suspension would be necessary to accommodate the added horsepower successfully, and produce a car that has good handling and is safe to drive under everyday conditions. There is considerable evidence that most of these conversion attempts end up, at least at one point or another, with a hacked-up 1800 that is either abandoned forever or later rescued by someone else. Even the original AC/Ford (Cobra) engine swap needed to be completely reworked, including a suspension redesign, before it was successful either on or off the racetrack. And it is this re-engineering of the rest of the car's systems that makes a successful swap of this magnitude difficult to achieve. Just bolting in a big engine because it can be made to fit just does not work. I'd still love to try it though!"

In reply to NOHOME:

This story is well known in 1800 circles and essentially states what I've said often whenever this subject pops up on this site.

Just be sure to keep all of the parts you cut out so that someone might be able to reverse it. Just in case something happens and you're unable to complete the project.

Ian:

I figured that article might have formed the basis for some of your advice. Especially the heads-up on the wiper and HVAC systems.

If you compare the firewall modifications, you will see that the two conversions are going to be quite different.

I am eyeballing the battery location as a possible spot for an AC unit; combined with the original location for the heater, I should have plenty of room for one of the hot-rod systems that provide heat, cooling and defrost.

The remaining area of concern is cooling for the engine. I have never designed a hot rod cooling system from scratch. It has always been off the shelf for the vehicle of choice. Last thing I want is a car that loses it cool in traffic. Working with the following data:

1 sq in of rad per cc of engine

2 row aluminum rad not copper

Fans pulling rather than pushing

Duct the fans and front of rad.

I currently have 5" of space between the nose of the waterpump and the front plane of where the original rad sat. I dont know what kind of thickness I will have when I stack a rad and fans. If more is required, then I will have to customize the front rad support area or put the fans in front as see what happens.

Also need some blockhugger headers and hope they fit.

Yes, I have noticed you're trying to keep the engine as far forward as possible, which will help with under-dash space. I have a similar plan for stealing the battery space for HVAC stuff (and perhaps the MS ECU). Especially if the sheet metal where the current heater is 'squared off' more into the engine bay, thus creating a large boxish area under/behind the dash to hang an aftermarket HVAC assembly from. I just haven't yet been able to visualize re-working the fresh-air intake set-up to be able to switch/blend interior and exterior air. Adding a filter would be nice too, if possible (silly things I've become used to in modern cars).

At some point I'll salvage a Miata wiper assembly and look into adapting that into the 1800. The OE wipers are kinda wimpy compared to modern cars. Better than my LBC's, but not by much.

Well, its not structural, but it IS good to see something in that huge hole. Also good too see that there is still room for stuff like people and apendages.

The transmission is just tossed in after I finihsed gutting a spare (WAY cheaper than the foam AOD mock up box.) Need a minor trim around the linkafe to sit level but its close on first try.

Looks like the back half of the tunnel is going to have to grow up a bit. The good news is that with a fixed center section the shaft does not move around much.

Could of sworn there was text in this post!

The intake is from a 94-95 Mustang. This is the lowest intake available for the 302 and it clears the hood with just over 1/4" to spare. Big relief since that means I dont have to go after the last inch or so that I might find by cutting the oil pan.

Headers are next. The factory mustang headers did not work. Will try some block huggers before I order a box of bends and make my own.

The good news here is that I am running out of technical uncertainties. Still a ton of details to make this all work, but I am pretty confident that a Miata suspension and a 302 with an AOD will work with this envelope.

Looks great!

Not a lot of progresson Bjorn this weekend. The MGB took up a lot of time replacing hydraulic systems.

I did get a start on the frame table that I will use to make sure that I am not building a Swedish pretzel that goes down the road sideways. It is also nice to have datums that I can measure from and have some confidence.

The car will be mounted on this table at ride height and rake. The suspension will then be located square. Once that is done,I can permanently weld the suspension components in place and have a roller.

It's up in the air and once I get it squared up I can get back to working on the suspension. Getting the car up there without help was a lot of fun...

You could have asked for help, you know.

DeadSkunk wrote: You could have asked for help, you know.

I woulda, except I was still a couple of beers away from having a clue how I was going to get the damn thing up there.

Well....this is about to escalate.

Accidentally bought a complete 1990 Miata. The plan is to skin the Miata down and see how well the Miata chassis will integrate with the P1800 tub. Found a good image of what I will strip this down to.

An interesting measurement would be the distance from the front wheel centerline to the steering wheel.

Miata arrives next week-end and then the dis assembly starts. Need to find some locals who need Miata parts since I am about to have a lot of them!

From the research I did, the width should be good - while the track is wider than the 1800, there is a lot of fender over-hang with the Volvo. The wheelbase of the Volvo is a few inches shorter, which could be dealt with by either shortening the pan or moving the wheel wells - neither would be easy, but I lean towards the latter. The one part I never got to looking at was how the cowls match up. Interested in seeing what you find there.

Ian F wrote: From the research I did, the width should be good - while the track is wider than the 1800, there is a lot of fender over-hang with the Volvo. The wheelbase of the Volvo is a few inches shorter, which could be dealt with by either shortening the pan or moving the wheel wells - neither would be easy, but I lean towards the latter. The one part I never got to looking at was how the cowls match up. Interested in seeing what you find there.

More terrifying than "interesting"!

Once I started to add up the fabrication required to graft this all together, the Miata makes a lot of sense. Not that I could not do it, but why bother if Mazda has already done the work for me? As a bonus, I expect this will be a cheaper path to follow after absorbing the hit of buying the Miata.

I will be able to use a tried and true Miata V8 conversion crossmember that will cost me about the same to buy as it would to fabricate. Headers become off the shelf items rather than unknowns.

And I was paying attention when you spoke of HVAC: Since I do want AC in this car, using as much of the Miata firewall as possible means that I MIGHT be able to just install a Miata AC system.

The question will also become what dash to use for best results. The classic Volvo look appeals to me, but the shock factor of the Miata dash in a classic Volvo has an evil attraction; going to be interesting to see what the Volvo guys think about this one.

Going to use as much Miata wiring as possible and just strip out what I don't need.

Miata wheelbase=89.4

Volvo wheelbase= 96.5

Miata track 56.4

Volvo Track 51.6

would have been nice if they lined right up! The big question is where the seating wants to land.

NOHOME wrote:

Ian F wrote: From the research I did, the width should be good - while the track is wider than the 1800, there is a lot of fender over-hang with the Volvo. The wheelbase of the Volvo is a few inches shorter, which could be dealt with by either shortening the pan or moving the wheel wells - neither would be easy, but I lean towards the latter. The one part I never got to looking at was how the cowls match up. Interested in seeing what you find there.

More terrifying than "interesting"!<img src="/media/img/icons/smilies/crazy-18.png" class="smiley" alt="" / The question will also become what dash to use for best results. The classic Volvo look appeals to me, but the shock factor of the Miata dash in a classic Volvo has an evil attraction; going to be interesting to see what the Volvo guys think about this

Stick with Volvo dash or do a custom dash. No Miata dash PLEASE!

Sine_Qua_Non wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

Ian F wrote: From the research I did, the width should be good - while the track is wider than the 1800, there is a lot of fender over-hang with the Volvo. The wheelbase of the Volvo is a few inches shorter, which could be dealt with by either shortening the pan or moving the wheel wells - neither would be easy, but I lean towards the latter. The one part I never got to looking at was how the cowls match up. Interested in seeing what you find there.

More terrifying than "interesting"!<img src="/media/img/icons/smilies/crazy-18.png" class="smiley" alt="" / The question will also become what dash to use for best results. The classic Volvo look appeals to me, but the shock factor of the Miata dash in a classic Volvo has an evil attraction; going to be interesting to see what the Volvo guys think about this

Stick with Volvo dash or do a custom dash. No Miata dash PLEASE!

See! I'm already pissing people off!

NOHOME wrote:

Sine_Qua_Non wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

Ian F wrote: From the research I did, the width should be good - while the track is wider than the 1800, there is a lot of fender over-hang with the Volvo. The wheelbase of the Volvo is a few inches shorter, which could be dealt with by either shortening the pan or moving the wheel wells - neither would be easy, but I lean towards the latter. The one part I never got to looking at was how the cowls match up. Interested in seeing what you find there.

More terrifying than "interesting"!<img src="/media/img/icons/smilies/crazy-18.png" class="smiley" alt="" / The question will also become what dash to use for best results. The classic Volvo look appeals to me, but the shock factor of the Miata dash in a classic Volvo has an evil attraction; going to be interesting to see what the Volvo guys think about this

Stick with Volvo dash or do a custom dash. No Miata dash PLEASE!

See! I'm already pissing people off!

I'd rather you put in a Honda S2000 dash instead.

Use the Volvo dash... but fit newer style gauges????

http://www.auroragauges.com/

NOHOME wrote: More terrifying than "interesting"! Once I started to add up the fabrication required to graft this all together, the Miata makes a lot of sense. Not that I could not do it, but why bother if Mazda has already done the work for me? As a bonus, I expect this will be a cheaper path to follow after absorbing the hit of buying the Miata. would have been nice if they lined right up! The big question is where the seating wants to land.

Wow... I think this is a first in the 5 years I've been on this forum... somebody actually listened to me...

Yeah... where the seating and firewall lines up will be tricky. The other variable I never dug into was how to make the front shock/spring mounts work since they'll be essentially under the fenders in the 1800 as the Miata hood is much wider.

The dash issue may end up working itself out by necessity - Volvo dash for easier mounting, but modified with Miata gauges for simplified wiring.

Oh yeah... show up with this car at a classic Volvo meet and the purists will be chasing you around with flaming pitch forks...

Ian F wrote: Oh yeah... show up with this car at a classic Volvo meet and the purists will be chasing you around with flaming pitch forks...

I'm tired of berkleying "purists"... As Jefferson wrote... we need a bit o' revolution now and again.....

In reply to oldeskewltoy:

Here here! (I had to chime in after my subaru powered Corvair suggestion took some heat) !

Some of you might have figured out that I am not a purist when it comes to my automotive projects. My favourite meat product is "Sacred Cow"

I am still trying to decide if I am making progress or just getting in deeper with this project. Either way, its a lot of fun.

i have made my project car career off of offending the purists. the mopar guys are the worst so far, but at least some of them get it.

i rather enjoy making them cringe. especially when using rare parts and modifying them, making them completely perfect for my application and worthless for a resto.