12 Focus 2.0 vs. Miata 2.0

Our 2012 Focus has an amazing 2.0L engine. It has been peppy and economical for 84k miles. The Focus itself, however has been a terrible ownership experience. Many electrical issues, EPAS failure two flywheels, Three clutches and two DCT replacement transmissions plus a dozen more trips for reprogramming and diag have left us angry at the car and FoMoCo. A few weeks ago Kelly got stuck in a drift on the road in front of our house. A kind neighbor ran into her drivers door trying to pass her un the lawn while she was stuck. He didn't slow down let alone stop. With Michigans insurance scam system I could make a claim and pay my deductible and have an ever progressive rate increase over the next 2 years or I could drop a grand into repairs plus $1900 into the EPAS and a few hundred more in ball joints and the list goes on. We will be replacing car because it's simply not worth it.

It's also valueless as a car. 

Unless...

We all know the NC Answer engine shares a great amount of DNA with the Focus. 

We all know the 2.5 Ford engine bolts to the NC and later transmissions.

If one would surmise that they could mate a Focus 2.0 engine to a NC 6 speed using a Miata clutch and flywheel, correct?

Would there be any reason to not use the stock Ford electronics?

Please open your minds and voice your opinions!

If that's the Ford Duratec 2.0, it IS a Miata 2.0 engine.

That's what I thought but I wasn't 100% certain.

Curious where you are going to find an NC where the only issue is a dead engine....

That being said, the '12 Focus engine and the NC engine are not the same thing- the '12 Focus engine is direct injection, and the NC's is PFI.  So it would be pretty painful to change the powertain over.

In reply to alfadriver :

It will be for the Panhard. I'm building a frame for the NA suspensions regardless, what's a little engine setback and a miserable nightmare of wiring transfer when it comes to a long term project?

Just think of it this way....All of the 2.5L that go into Miata and Mazda 3 are from Fusions and Escapes. Just going to throw this out there....Those engines are giveaways at the yard. I've bought 2 for under $300 each that were next to new. 

If you can get any value out of the Focus, just getting a 2.5L from the yard may be better for you. 

JmfnB said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It will be for the Panhard. I'm building a frame for the NA suspensions regardless, what's a little engine setback and a miserable nightmare of wiring transfer when it comes to a long term project?

The real problem is that original ECU expects a DCT transmission behind the engine, and that won't be there.  That's the worst one- the rest of the parts that the ECU expects just makes it worse.  

And there's not an option for an aftermarket computer for the DI Duratec engines.  Not sure if HP Tuners would be able to do it- as the basic Focus isn't one that anyone is working on.  

alfadriver said:

Curious where you are going to find an NC where the only issue is a dead engine....

That being said, the '12 Focus engine and the NC engine are not the same thing- the '12 Focus engine is direct injection, and the NC's is PFI.  So it would be pretty painful to change the powertain over.

Thanks for the clarification. Are they the same basic architecture other than the injection?

NCs seem to have higher rates of engine failure than the earlier cars. The MZR is not as overbuilt as the BP was. But of course everyone just stuffs a 2.5 in there and grins so it doesn't matter...

In reply to bmw88rider :

Great point. 

The only real reason I would consider keeping it is the provenance of the engine. I know the car and have maintained it. It's runs very well, the rest of the car is E36M3. If I make it run as a 2.0 Focus it wouldn't be easy to swap in a 2.5 engine short of doing it as a short block and I'm not certain if it has been done. 

My goal is a driveable and easily maintained 200hp. 

Wow!  Sorry to hear about your ownership experience.  My 2013 just surprised 80,000 trouble free miles.  Okay, I get annoyed at Sync.  But other than that, zero problems.  It is a three pedal car though. 

As far as value, it's a disposable.

Sounds like that engine combined with a NC FI parts and ECU might work for you, but otherwise I wouldn't bother unless you plan on using everything off the (lack of) Focus, including the DCT (wasn't there a lawsuit over those damned things?).

I wonder if swapping in a manual gearbox and ECU would solve the problem?  Not sure if that's feasible with that drivetrain.

Probably best to send it down the road for a better, cheap donor. 

A wrecked FoST would fit the bill and provide support both factory/aftermarket would more than fit your needs, plus their value has dropped quite a bit compared to the RS.

Keith Tanner said:

alfadriver said:

Curious where you are going to find an NC where the only issue is a dead engine....

That being said, the '12 Focus engine and the NC engine are not the same thing- the '12 Focus engine is direct injection, and the NC's is PFI.  So it would be pretty painful to change the powertain over.

Thanks for the clarification. Are they the same basic architecture other than the injection?

NCs seem to have higher rates of engine failure than the earlier cars. The MZR is not as overbuilt as the BP was. But of course everyone just stuffs a 2.5 in there and grins so it doesn't matter...

Yea, essentially the same motor.   Just not directly swappable.  Can't put a DI head on the previous engine.  As a matter of fact, it would be pretty hard to change it to PFI, as the intake, piston, cams, etc- are all designed around DI.  If I were to do a Ford-Miata swap, I'd look at an Fusion 2.5l or an earlier Focus 2.0l (which there are hundreds of thousands out there).

So what is failing on the NC motor?  Curious, as I REALLY like that engine family a lot.

Yeah, I've seen the differences in things like pistons on DI. I was just curious as to whether it was a generational change or an evolutionary one.

I think the main failure point is rod bearings. I know Mazda changed from cast to forged rods in 2009 for the manual trans cars. I'm not sure if that changed the failure rate.

Three pedal option is a no deal for Mrs Mofo. She likes the D (on her PRNDL ) plus theres still about $3000 in repairs that need to be done from the last month of driving it. Not worth it.

S yeah, I guess it's a 1.8 with some sort of power adder, a 2.5/NC trans or who knows... 

Suspension donor will be home soon.

alfadriver said:

JmfnB said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It will be for the Panhard. I'm building a frame for the NA suspensions regardless, what's a little engine setback and a miserable nightmare of wiring transfer when it comes to a long term project?

The real problem is that original ECU expects a DCT transmission behind the engine, and that won't be there.  That's the worst one- the rest of the parts that the ECU expects just makes it worse.  

And there's not an option for an aftermarket computer for the DI Duratec engines.  Not sure if HP Tuners would be able to do it- as the basic Focus isn't one that anyone is working on.  

Since the Miata manual trans setup will ask bolt on, why not just procure a manual trans focus ecu to run it? Does that ecu care about which manual trans the engineer is hooked to?

alfadriver said:

JmfnB said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It will be for the Panhard. I'm building a frame for the NA suspensions regardless, what's a little engine setback and a miserable nightmare of wiring transfer when it comes to a long term project?

The real problem is that original ECU expects a DCT transmission behind the engine, and that won't be there.  That's the worst one- the rest of the parts that the ECU expects just makes it worse.  

And there's not an option for an aftermarket computer for the DI Duratec engines.  Not sure if HP Tuners would be able to do it- as the basic Focus isn't one that anyone is working on.  

There IS an aftermarket computer option for the DI Duratec.  It's not particularly cheap but not very expensive either - I'd like to say around $2000 the then-current GBP-USD rate.

Using a tune from a manual trans Focus would get you around the transmission issue, assuming that there are no other components the PCM needs to see.  The next issue is, just because HPT has support does not mean it has FULL support.  For commonly tuned things like GenIII/IV V8s, you can have access to almost everything.  For other things, not so much.  Yes, you CAN tweak a Chevy 3100, or a Ranger 2.3 (DOHC), but you only can play with some very rudimentary maps.  (And for the Diesels, they actually removed some of the tuning capability - you can't disable EGR or SCR or DPF or other TLAs)

alfadriver said:

Yea, essentially the same motor.   Just not directly swappable.  Can't put a DI head on the previous engine. 

Why not?

The Focus 2.0 head is apparently the best Duratec head for making power.  There's a recipe for Midget engines requiring stock blocks, cranks, and unported heads that starts with a 2.5 block, a 2.3 crank (makes for a Midget-legal 2.4l engine), and a Focus DI 2.0 head.  Apparently with good pistons, rods, cams, and induction/header, it's a 340hp engine.  You can buy blanking plugs for the fuel injectors and for the camshaft actuators.

I keep thinking about this engine idea.  If it "only" made 300hp after knocking the compression down to pump gas friendly levels instead of methanol-friendly levels, that is still a major win in my book.  And since it's not built to a rules spec, why not keep it 2.5l?  And MS3Pro will be able to control the camshafts, so no need to blank them off either, and maybe we can get some drivability out of the thing too...

At some point, a junkyard 2.0 or 2.3 Ecoboost and the $1800-ish controls pack comes back around to being a sensible option.

The biggest thing is the DI head is designed for DI.  Injectors are a hole next to the spark plug, and the ports/intake manifold have no PFI space.  So there's have to be enough swapping that you'd be better off just keeping the original PFI head.  One thing to remember, the PFI injectors are in the head, not the manifold, so somehow one would have to add metal and properly machine the holes for PFI injectors.

As for tuner support, you can get it for the turbo engines, for sure.  I kinda doubt that they have support for the NA engine- while it makes no sense to most, the code that the NA motor runs is very different than the turbo motor, as is the ECU- so all of the turbo hacks will not work on the NA motor.

And if we recall TVR Scott's experience, the Ford Motorsports support for the 2.0 is not really there- so just go with the 2.3l out of the Mustang.  Which isn't what Mr Brown wants to do.  Other than the Ford Motorsports solution, who DI solution?  I've not heard of one....

Really, the way to go is follow the NA 2.5l path.  And I know it's possible to take some 2.5l parts, put them into the 2.0l and make a great base for a turbo engine.  Back in the 2005 era, we made a turbo Mondeo to play with that used parts from various engines.  For a cheaper DIY solution, that's the way to go.

I can definitely say the '12 Focus engine will mate to a NC 5spd as I am putting one in my locost. I managed to pick up one of the Ford Racing TI-VCT standalone kits for the brief period they were sold. Not sure if FORScan is capable of getting the stock ecu running standalone or not. There are folks that have done manual swaps. 

The MK3 Focus group seems to use the SCTX4 from focus-power and reddevil. 

My project isn't quite ready for startup but I've gone through the wiring and everything seems to be where it needs to. With a tune it's supposed to be good for 180whp. There is a cam on the market but it's pricey and no one has posted numbers afaik.  

In reply to HFmaxi :

Hey, if it works, it works.  BTW, you do know it's also Flex Fuel, so it will take full advantage of E85's capabilities, right?  DI and E85 are a match made in heaven.

alfadriver said:

In reply to HFmaxi :

Hey, if it works, it works.  BTW, you do know it's also Flex Fuel, so it will take full advantage of E85's capabilities, right?  DI and E85 are a match made in heaven.

No E85 pumps in Delaware atm. 

Well the Miata chassis donor has an optional Megasquirt that can come with it, priced exceptionally well. 

Asking this out of pure ignorance, but why can't the DI engine be controlled by a MS type system? Cam actuators, ignition and a fuel map with the ability to open and close the injectors is what's needed, right? 

In reply to Stefan :

It seems there was a class action lawsuit and a settlement detailed here.

In reply to JmfnB :

The injectors require a LOT of voltage/current to control. Higher than the standard 12-14v used by port injectors. Some vehicles have a separate control module, so that the PCM doesn't have to have high voltage flying around inside.

Might be a Diesel application I am thinking of, but some implementations use the voltage ringback from one injector closing to open the next one.

JmfnB said:

Well the Miata chassis donor has an optional Megasquirt that can come with it, priced exceptionally well. 

Asking this out of pure ignorance, but why can't the DI engine be controlled by a MS type system? Cam actuators, ignition and a fuel map with the ability to open and close the injectors is what's needed, right? 

To be more specific, the DI injectors run at 65V.  And require a very specialized signal that MS can't get from any of the suppliers.  In addition to that, the high pressure fuel pump control is also very specialized.  And for the Focus (and all Ford products, for that matter), it's all on the main ECU.  

The other part is that DI's calibration is much more complex than PFI- where PFI can deal with a pretty wide arrange of injection timing, DI requires pretty right control over the timing- so the mapping is much more difficult than PFI.  In concert with the injection pressure control.