2011 Challenge Rules

aussiesmg wrote: Or advertise the second car on eBay and what the high bid is is what you can claim. You don't have to follow through on the sale, just tell the buyer it was destroyed.

if you don't follow through on the sale, you can't subtract it from your budget.

spin_out wrote: Well we foolishly paid money for a 36 year old car, to compete with sub 11 second turbo charged 4wd Mitsubishis. No ABS, LSD, Fuel Injection, etc. Any chance of changing the "old car" Challenge class to being a straight 35 years old? :) Besides dealing with 36 years of rust and antiquated technology, I find myself dealing with two (worthless) service manuals with terms like "Prise", "Boot", "Bonnet", and "Windscreen". Apparently "Prise" means pry (In American). And I just got started. Cant wait to see words like "Dynamo" and "spanner". Oh, and I swear that there is hardware that is neither inches nor metric. Bloody L! Actually I'm having a lot of fun. (Except for the rodent nests and endless mouse turds.)

What is this service manual thing of which you speak?

Sounds british and in need of way more displacement. Got a 39 year old for 2011

I've started using one service manual as a place mat. I took a look through the second service manual, and it's staying unopened and in the house. My co-owner wants secrecy this year, but I'll give the hint that the 2 service manuals are for 2 different cars. Bloody L.

Last night I (force) fitted factory '65 Mustang Strut braces on our 1975 Challenge car. Now to figure out what Colour to paint them. Oops, I mean color. :-)

Say someone were to sell their car (non-challenge related) and then purchase it back from the buyer (over a year later) would said person be okay using the value at which they bought the car the second time. Would this modified car be counted as a unit or would each part have to be accounted for?

assuming there was no challenge forethought about reducing the purchase price i would imagine the budget cost would be what it took to purchase it the most recent time, as is.

And yes, I agree it would be a single unit cost. After all, we're all familiar with how little modifications are worth when you SELL a car.

In reply to BoneYard_Racing:

Was it sold for the sole purpose of reducing value? If not, you bought the whole car for that price, and you have the rest to spend on new parts.

Knowing him there was no forethought at all

Seriously though no, it was not sold for that purpose. He was begging for it back since shortly after he sold it.

Another question... If you ran a car in a previous Challenge and you at that time had spent 2000 of the budget... That leaves you $11 for this year? (That is what it looks like to me....)

Just wondering..

Scott

noddaz wrote: Another question... If you ran a car in a previous Challenge and you at that time had spent 2000 of the budget... That leaves you $11 for this year? (That is what it looks like to me....) Just wondering.. Scott

or you could FMV it to reflect usage / deterioration over the years. that's been accepted more than once on challenge cars that are also daily drivers.

I have a couple budget questions. Just want to make sure I understand the recoup part correctly.

Say I have purchased three vehicles. One is the Challenge car, the other two are parts cars. Say the prices are something like $300, $100, $500, not in any particular order, but for a $900 total. That would allow for a max recoup of $900, correct?

Second part. Is there a recoup cap per vehicle, or is it on the total? For example is selling $150 worth of stuff off the $100 car legit as long as the total claimed is at or under max recoup limit?

You can sell $300 from the $300 car, $100 from the $100 car, etc.

For budgeting, yes, the maximum you can reclaim is the purchase price of that car. But by all means, if you can turn a profit playing this game, go right ahead.

I want to build a car that places in the top half and zeroes out at $0.00. I know there have been others that have turned a profit on Challenge builds, but I'd like to see how well one can be done with such a limited amount spent.

Personally, I'd expect it to blow up during the first autocross run.

My interpretation of the budget recoup rules were that you could recoup up to the cost of that item, and up to a total of $1005.50. That would allow one to purchase a $1000 car and still have a little wiggle room to zero out completely. It also gives $2005.50 to play with for cars that enter in the $1000 or less class.

DILYSI Dave wrote: You can sell $300 from the $300 car, $100 from the $100 car, etc.

unevolved wrote: For budgeting, yes, the maximum you can reclaim is the purchase price of that car. But by all means, if you can turn a profit playing this game, go right ahead.

Thanks. One of the parts cars brought in a couple dollars more across the scales than what I got it for. That was after pulling everything useful (and then some) off it. I was hoping to be able to roll that extra over to the other parts car. But it's still cash in pocket so I'm not complaining.

AngryCorvair wrote:

noddaz wrote: Another question... If you ran a car in a previous Challenge and you at that time had spent 2000 of the budget... That leaves you $11 for this year? (That is what it looks like to me....) Just wondering.. Scott

or you could FMV it to reflect usage / deterioration over the years. that's been accepted more than once on challenge cars that are also daily drivers.

Let me get this straight... Say I have last years car that I spent $2000 on the build.
This year I say that it is only worth $1600...
That is acceptable? (Obviously it is...) I ask because I was wondering how teams were able to run cars from previous Challenges and still make budget after engine swaps and rebuilds... Now I know... Thank you.

I wouldn't FMV a car from the previous race, but I wouldn't have any issues in doing it with one from years ago.

noddaz wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote:

noddaz wrote: Another question... If you ran a car in a previous Challenge and you at that time had spent 2000 of the budget... That leaves you $11 for this year? (That is what it looks like to me....) Just wondering.. Scott

or you could FMV it to reflect usage / deterioration over the years. that's been accepted more than once on challenge cars that are also daily drivers.

Let me get this straight... Say I have last years car that I spent $2000 on the build. This year I say that it is only worth $1600... That is acceptable? (Obviously it is...) I ask because I was wondering how teams were able to run cars from previous Challenges and still make budget after engine swaps and rebuilds... Now I know... Thank you.

Don't get carried away. I said "usage/deterioration over the years." "Years" is the plural of "year", so I would not expect this to fly in 2011 with a car from the 2010 challenge.

From one year to the next, you start with the previous year's budget, and add/subtract/trade from there to build this year's car (and budget).

Re. how to make budget with an engine swap: if last year's engine was a separate line item, ie not bought as part of the car, then all you do is remove it from this year's budget and replace it with this year's engine cost.

If it was part of the original car, then you actually have to sell it if you want to deduct its value from this year's budget.

Example: My V8 Corvair, which I ran in '03 and '04. It came with an old 327, with an old Edelbrock intake and an old Holley 780 carb. I ran it as-received in '03, then sold the heads (someone wanted the old castings for a resto) and the "period-correct" intake for enough money to buy a junkyard Vortec 5.7 and a Vortec-compatible intake manifold. I traded the 780 to another Challenger for a 600, and dropped 2.5 seconds from my ET for the cost of a top-end gasket kit.

Another Example: My V8 944, which was built by another team for the '04 and '05 challenge. When he got the car, it still had the 4-cyl, so his budget showed the swap kit plus the SBC as separate line items from the car. Also, he sold enough Porsche parts to zero out his purchase price. When I got the car from him, the engine was blown up and there was nothing of value that I could sell for recoup, but I still paid a fair price for the car with the V8 kit installed. So I asked GRM if I could start with the PO's line item budget, and they said yes. Even though that caused me to start at a higher price than what I had in the car, it allowed me to simply remove the cost of the PO's engine and other components that were missing when I bought the car.

Over the years, there have been many people who have asked on the GRM boards, questions very similar to: "I bought this car for $1500 four years ago and it's been my DD since. They currently sell for about $900. Do I have to use my actual purchase price of $1500, or can I use today's street value of $900, as my budget starting point?" The answer has been "FMV". When I asked that question, it applied to my '06 Challenge Probe GT which has been my DD since '04 and currently has almost 50k additional miles since the '06 event, on the same clutch/struts/bushings/engine as were used in the '06 event. Clearly not the same as depreciating a '10 challenge car for '11.

Derick Freese wrote: ... It also gives $2005.50 to play with for cars that enter in the $1000 or less class.

so the $1000 and less is just the price of the car, not including what you've done to it?

In reply to corytate:

No, total budget.

corytate wrote:

Derick Freese wrote: ... It also gives $2005.50 to play with for cars that enter in the $1000 or less class.

so the $1000 and less is just the price of the car, not including what you've done to it?

the $1000 or less refers to the bottom line of the budget as the car is raced at the challenge. So you could buy a car for $2005.50 and max out your recoup of $1005.50 and compete in the $1000 or less class.

AngryCorvair wrote:

corytate wrote:

Derick Freese wrote: ... It also gives $2005.50 to play with for cars that enter in the $1000 or less class.

so the $1000 and less is just the price of the car, not including what you've done to it?

the $1000 or less refers to the bottom line of the budget as the car is raced at the challenge. So you could buy a car for $2005.50 and max out your recoup of $1005.50 and compete in the $1000 or less class.

Ohhh, well thats out then=]
this first outing, at least, I'm building what is also going to be a weekend car/ occasional DD
About the hotel accomodations, after we enter and pay, what do we need to do to reserve the room and all, do we get a group discount, idk much about the actual logistics of everything at the challenge. Thank you, hope I'm not being an annoying E36 M3head

Hotel details will be announced, likely closer to the date of the challenge. Possibly when the entry forms are made available. I'd search, but am behind at work. There is a group rate. You may do better at another hotel, but you'll miss out on hanging with a bunch of really cool people.

In reply to mistanfo:

I'm local and I plan on getting a room at the host hotel. Too much is missed out on by not being at ground zero.

Per Schroeder wrote: on NHRA rules can be found at nhra.com. 4. The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: A) Seat belts or safety harnesses and their mounting hardware. B) Window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints. C) Fire extinguishers or fire-extinguishing systems. D) SFI-rated scattershields and driveshaft loops. E) Helmets, driver’s suits, shoes and other personal safety gear. F) Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders, rotors, drums, brake cylinders, calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with new stock pieces. Original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance. G) Roll bars and roll cages may be added. Roll cages must be bolted (not welded) into the automobile and contained within the passenger/driver compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. A roll cage has more than five attachment points (but no more than eight) to the body or frame. Roll bars and roll cages must be padded within 6 inches of the occupants’ heads with SFI-spec high-density padding. Helmets must be worn in cars with roll bars or roll cages. Any additional bars and attachment points added to the roll bar or roll cage, or extending the bar or cage outside of the passenger compartment to the suspension pickup points, will negate this allowance and make the entire cage count toward the budget. The safety items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.

Any chance C-clip eliminators may be considered a safety item that does not add any performance advantage and be added to this list?