2014 Rallycross National Championship in 5-ish days. Roll call!

irish44j wrote: Either way, that's rallycross. Winning by not screwing up like other people is just as good as winning by any other means. So congrats either way.

I know I could have posted a faster time my last run of the day to make a more comfortable margin. And I definitely would have posted a faster time if I was in second and pushing for first. I was just so scared of pushing too hard and clipping the cone that would lose it for me that I backed off a little in some key corners.

I'm happy I was able to pull it off this year and I will definitely be back for Nationals next year. Despite all the drama and WTF moments of the weekend I still had a blast and love meeting and hanging out with rallycross friends from all over.

Knurled wrote: It's not about the car unless the car is keeping you from looking at the course.

I agree with you in general, but with two caveats:

1. What if, say, a heavily modded BRZ were to win nationals in MR? Would the driver get as much credit as a 1984 RX-7 winning? I'd tend to say that publicly people would give the driver credit, but secretly we'd all be thinking that he won because of the car.

2. The car does matter inasmuch as the owner builds and maintains it to be able to finish an event. Chris Nonack was the fastest driver in our region for 2 seasons. But he never won an event because either his MR2, his Mustang, or his Celica could never finish an event without breaking something. Except one event: when he drove my car and it didn't break. And he knocked me out of winning the local season points championship. doh!

mazdeuce wrote:

Knurled wrote:

mazdeuce wrote: but there was nothing about either corner that indicated that they were a hazard prior to either incident.

I disagree. It was a downhill off camber corner, going from a left bend on the top of the rise to a sharp right corner at the bottom of the hill. In soft ground. Quite frankly, I am pleased that ONLY one car rolled in that corner. It scared the crap out of me, both as a corner worker and a driver.

That was the planned change I referred to earlier. That spot needed to be fixed. However, the CRX was just about to flop on it's roof when it passed that point with both tires two feet inside the cone. He knocked the cone over with his roof. There were so many bad parts of all of the courses, both by design and because things fell apart. I was certain we were going to lose a car where Wae (it was you right?) went up high on two wheels. I voiced my concerns several times during the session and could only get a small move. Frankly there was no way to fix it, you were turing on an off camber part of the track. It was like getting the first 10 degrees of your roll for free. I think rather than saying that there was no defining reason for the cars to roll where they did, I should say that there were 5-6 other places where I thought cars were going to roll first. Being a safety steward was the worst part of the weekend for me. You guys were trusting me to have a safe course and I couldn't do that.

It's OK, according to Timing the rules of physics don't apply when there are 12 cars lined up to run. Just forget about safety and lets run these cars so we can go to dinner!

EvanB wrote:

irish44j wrote: Either way, that's rallycross. Winning by not screwing up like other people is just as good as winning by any other means. So congrats either way.

I know I could have posted a faster time my last run of the day to make a more comfortable margin. And I definitely would have posted a faster time if I was in second and pushing for first. I was just so scared of pushing too hard and clipping the cone that would lose it for me that I backed off a little in some key corners. I'm happy I was able to pull it off this year and I will definitely be back for Nationals next year. Despite all the drama and WTF moments of the weekend I still had a blast and love meeting and hanging out with rallycross friends from all over.

I hear you. I won my first event last year against the reigning PR champion because he had a 2-second lead going into the last run so he backed off just a tad to not cone, and I went balls-out and beat him by 2.2 seconds on the last run. Looking at the times, I figured you backed off to play it safe on that last run :)

and seriously, where are the photos/vids of all this two-wheeling action. Inquiring minds want to see! Can't tell crap from Pete's vids, lol.

irish44j wrote: 1. What if, say, a heavily modded BRZ were to win nationals in MR? Would the driver get as much credit as a 1984 RX-7 winning? I'd tend to say that publicly people would give the driver credit, but secretly we'd all be thinking that he won because of the car.

This happened in PF with my codriver that won. They're declaring the Civic So the clear over dog for the class. Let's not forget this kid rides motorcycles, daily drives this car, tracks this car, and has attended every RX event for two years getting faster and faster at each one. It's clearly the car.

mazdeuce wrote: That was the planned change I referred to earlier. That spot needed to be fixed. However, the CRX was just about to flop on it's roof when it passed that point with both tires two feet inside the cone. He knocked the cone over with his roof.

Okay, that I did not see. I was perusing the cookie box (MMM, SUGAR!) when I heard metal being rent asunder and saw the CRX being all "Do a barrel roll!" right before the finish. So, yes, I did not see the start of the roll, just that it happened in a corner that, quite frankly, I wouldn't have passed if I were a safety steward. (Which I'm not, because I keep forgetting to submit the paperwork)

There were so many bad parts of all of the courses, both by design and because things fell apart. I was certain we were going to lose a car where Wae (it was you right?) went up high on two wheels.

Twice. The first time was in the middle of a corner, and since it was the left side that came up, I assume that the vaccum from butt-pucker sucked the car back down again. The part that I don't quite understand is how he did it again 50 feet later, in a straight section. Must be them Duke Boys genes in the car.

I voiced my concerns several times during the session and could only get a small move. Frankly there was no way to fix it, you were turing on an off camber part of the track. It was like getting the first 10 degrees of your roll for free.

Ex-actly. More after the jump.

Being a safety steward was the worst part of the weekend for me. You guys were trusting me to have a safe course and I couldn't do that.

The Stock class snafu that happened on Saturday's PM course (that resulted in the now-infamous "We have cars to run" radio call) was MY call. I saw two cars catch a lip on the "outside" of the entry of an off camber corner and get very squirrely and bicycley. One car was a fluke. Second time defined the issue. A safety steward was at the next corner station, so I called him over to observe. After observing two cars go by, he agreed that it was a roll waiting to happen and did his job and stopped runs before anything bad happened.

When I was acting/training safety steward, when I have worked in capacity as "roving n00b trainer/unofficial safety", I would go to every corner station and tell them that I cannot be everywhere at once, and part of the duty of working course is to observe the cars going by and identify if a safety issue is rearing. I've been doing this long enough that I can spot potential issues before they start, so I use that as a guide: "Pay attention to (whatever) and make sure it doesn't get to where people start popping up, but if you see anything that might be an issue, call me on the radio."

We're here to have fun. Yes, there's money involved, but in truth the contingency awards for the few who qualify probably won't even cover their tow bills. (I know I blew through my contingency just in driving TO the event. I spent nearly $1500 to be at Nationals, all told. The $250 from Mazda will be nice but it's a drop in the bucket) You know what is not fun? Totalling your car that you just bought, or spent a lot of time and effort building and painting and prepping. The cars that were rolled were NOT "beaters". Leon Drake's car was a beautifully turned out 16V conversion that has seen a lot of paintwork and prep since its debut last season in mostly-stock form, and while I'm not familiar with the CRX that rolled, it looked very well done and had either a wrap or very nice paintwork. (As well as a nearly identical twin that had been running in PF) And the WRX was a clean unmolested Stock-legal car, and a rare one at that. At least THAT one looked, from my vantage point, like it may be an easy fix.

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: It's not about the car unless the car is keeping you from looking at the course.

I agree with you in general, but with two caveats: 1. What if, say, a heavily modded BRZ were to win nationals in MR? Would the driver get as much credit as a 1984 RX-7 winning? I'd tend to say that publicly people would give the driver credit, but secretly we'd all be thinking that he won because of the car.

I pointed out to a BR-Z owner that his new car was probably faster than my junk in every quantifiable way. Power/weight maybe not but the BR-Z probably makes more useful power. Yeah I have maybe 230-240hp but how often do I actually get to use it? Drivability and throttle response is more important.

2. The car does matter inasmuch as the owner builds and maintains it to be able to finish an event.

The same BR-Z owner was asking me about rotary stuff after urping the engine on his recently-bought 2.5RS. I guess to the outside observer, my car is reliable, but there is a lot of behind the scenes maintenance going on. Oil changes every 1000 miles, air filter changes right before/after every event, trans fluid changes... well I never get a trans to last long enough to need maintenance.

Friday morning, I was changing my rear axles in gusts of 40 degree wind, because the axle bearings were bad again, and I'd remembered to bring the spares with me. There's two sets of spares and I keep them with fresh bearings ready to go, like a one-man remanufacturing line. The car is 16 feet of that sort of thing.

In reply to Knurled:

When I was acting/training safety steward, when I have worked in capacity as "roving n00b trainer/unofficial safety", I would go to every corner station and tell them that I cannot be everywhere at once, and part of the duty of working course is to observe the cars going by and identify if a safety issue is rearing. I've been doing this long enough that I can spot potential issues before they start, so I use that as a guide: "Pay attention to (whatever) and make sure it doesn't get to where people start popping up, but if you see anything that might be an issue, call me on the radio."

After the morning runs on day 1 safety was not allowed to be on the same channel as the corner workers. We had our own channel and were only allowed to communicate through the chief of safety. I was soundly admonished for stating over the air that we would need to hold cars after a certain run group for quick changes. Only the chief safety steward was allowed to make that call and I was not allowed to issue anything other than gentle requests over the radio. I had to communicate with corner workers by yelling and waving hands.

mazdeuce wrote: In reply to Knurled: After the morning runs on day 1 safety was not allowed to be on the same channel as the corner workers. We had our own channel and were only allowed to communicate through the chief of safety. I was soundly admonished for stating over the air that we would need to hold cars after a certain run group for quick changes. Only the chief safety steward was allowed to make that call and I was not allowed to issue anything other than gentle requests over the radio. I had to communicate with corner workers by yelling and waving hands.

I remember now all the times I heard orders to switch to channel 7 to you guys. Gentle requests? I still go back to my understanding that YOU GUYS, the SAFETY STEWARDS, had that all-mighty power. Not just the old fart in the BMW "Rallycross Special Edition" SUV on the other side of the field.

I think you guys are all lying. The SCCA site write-up of nationals makes it sound like everything was peaches and cream...

http://www.scca.com/news/index.cfm?cid=52053

In reply to irish44j:

Which is why I want to talk about this stuff publically. If nobody says anything about the problems then they never happened.

I'm gonna see what Kris Martinsen has to say about it too, since he's on our team page (e30) and I guess he was one of the course designers, according to that article. Interested to see what his take is on the whole thing.

But seriously, if you want to drive the point home, nothing will do it like posting up pics and vids of cars on their roofs. That by itself should tell everyone everything they need to know about what was going on. Abstract comments in text just don't have the same kind of firepower.

Years ago at a local autocross a (Pro Class) car t-boned another car after running through a corner gate. I posted a picture of it in my wrap-up thread of the event and the organizers got really mad and asked me to take it down. I thought it was good to post though, since the accident was a result of a poorly thought-out design element, bad car spacing (and some bad luck). I had even posted up a map of WHY it was a bad design but nobody would acknowledge it, even though they changed the cone layout immediately after that run - all while claiming the original course was "perfectly safe."

We all want to make our organization look good, but when things aren't good, people need to have the freedom to say it without SCCA getting in "CYA" mode. Otherwise the problems will never get fixed and things will never improve. Locally when we have safety/course concerns our leadership is VERY quick to respond to it to make sure nobody is destroying cars. At nationals with the huge turnouts this should be doubly important, IMO.

Wow. Just got home at about 10. Tired. I think we left the hotel at about 1am eastern time. My in-car isn't that dramatic, compared to pics of cars on their roofs, but I'll get it edited and posted because I agree: it might be "bad publicity", but it needs to be discussed and the causes addressed.

A few things I'll throw out quickly...

1) 'The SCCA' is you, me, and all the other members.

2) The RallyCross Board is the highest reasonable level to send any constructive criticism. They are not reading this thread.

3) If you write them a rational, logical letter (email) and send it to rxb@scca.com, they will all read it and discuss your points. Expect to hear from one or more of them.

4) If you do step 3, expect to be given/asked to take on some higher level of responsibility (chief of ___ or similar) at the next RXNC you attend.

It's hard work to put on an all around good rallycross event when everything is perfect.

When you add to that the course variability of a site which most of the organizers have never been to, a group of organizers who only work together once a year, and some scca employees (yes there is such a thing) who are used to running SOLO national tour events and only run one rallycross a year, it's a recipe for some amount of turmoil every time.

After witnessing and being part of various levels of said turmoil in 2011, 12, & 13 I still would've liked to have been there this year and I hope to be there (where ever there is) next year.

irish44j wrote: I think you guys are all lying. The SCCA site write-up of nationals makes it sound like everything was peaches and cream... http://www.scca.com/news/index.cfm?cid=52053

I noticed that too. Here's some of that peaches and cream by our own WOR member:

Here's the in car from my half roll: http://youtu.be/EABsrgkWGJ4

Video is private Bill.

Knurled wrote: Stock NB except for the seat and airbag were removed, and wheel adapters so he could run FC RX-7 wheels.

I could not figure out what those wheels were and I never would have figured it out. FC wheels + NB = mind blown. Thank you.

cghstang wrote: Video is private Bill.

Derp. Should be fixed!

Between knowing how much slower then wae I am, and, more importantly, having had safety concerns at a course earlier this year that didn't result in anything as bad as what happened at nationals, I'm glad I didn't make it out there this year. Perhaps in the future when I know I can be more competitive, and if it sounds like safety problems have been addressed.

I understand (and accept) that rallycross is tougher on a car than autocross. I don't accept that it should be more dangerous.

In reply to cghstang:

I'll write a letter to them. This thread is helping me sort through the issues.

mazdeuce wrote: In reply to cghstang: I'll write a letter to them. This thread is helping me sort through the issues.

Chris posted some good points. And, it is very easy to Monday quarterback. And, it's easy to think about what you SHOULD have said, instead of whatever you blurt out when under pressure.

However, when a safety steward stops the course (which is their duty, otherwise they are just corner workers) and a call comes back from Control saying "we have more cars to run", what does that sound like? Okay, maybe they did mean "make the change quickly", but that is NOT how it gets interpreted.

From years of working/playing highly degradable sites, the practice of filling in holes looked like a recipe for disaster. Holes don't stay filled unless you let them sit for a month or two. Moving the course is the only solution.

Also, how many of the course design rules laid out in section 5.3 of Teh Rules were broken. Off camber turns, wildly short braking zone after the finish (with a person sitting in a chair right there in the way!), etc.

In reply to wae:

The pucker factor is great. My god that happened fast. Good catch.

I found the run where a WRX folded its control arm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gAiMSRaOxM

It seemed a lot worse in person. (My vantage point was almost identical to where this video came from, and I'm surprised you don't hear me shouting "YEAH BRIAN!" or whatever) But you can see when it happens, and the smoke coming from the LF after it happens.