Never drank that Kool aid cause I never saw a personal need for it. Besides being an added cost feature that is not needed, it drives up operating cost.
I figured you have a better chance of your 4wd system going wrong and stranding you on the side of the road ( or mechanic's shop) than you do of weather stranding your snow-tired 2wd car on the side of the road.
When I had the KJ , I used 4wd because it was terrible in 2rwd when it was slippery. Snow tires helped.
A fwd with four Blizzaks is all you need in the southern Adironacks. Years of experience with all drives.
captdownshift wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: True, but traction control is defeatable, AWD isn't
Why would you need to defeat it? What is so magical about only allowing half of the wheels to transmit power? Has rally been wrong all these years?
I've never been stranded by a failed AWD system, but I have driven out of situations where 2WD would not have cut it. And the first one that comes to mind was a 20-year-old Subaru with high miles that would have been my "most likely to fail" system.
AWD or full-time 4wd for me. I'm in the snowy states, and like stated, its a must. Though I must admit, I only buy the cars that are old enough to not have traction control and such, I prefer the mechanical LSD's front and rear. Snow tires help on any car, but for routine lake effect snow, they're a must if you want to get to work.
E92 FTW in the NE
captdownshift wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: True, but traction control is defeatable, AWD isn't
Maybe on some vehicles but it wasn't on my Transit Connect. Which left me stuck in a fairly level parking lot a few times. So now I drive this.
I'm with Keith on this one. The way an AWD car can exit a corner in all kinds of weather is pretty darn impressive. In the Volvo my wife drives it's a nice compromise between my dislike of FWD cars and her fear of RWD cars in bad weather. Is it necessary? No, I drove RWD cars and trucks in all kinds of weather for decades when I lived in Upstate NY but it sure increases a vehicles capability.
I need 4wd 6 months out of the year but my Land Cruiser feels so much better in 2h, I agree.
My wife however has a Prius on studs and it's good for 90% of the paved roads in the winter here. For everything else, there's the cruiser. The annoying part about traction control on the Prius was that it cut power so much that you literally lost all momentum and were stuck. On the studded tires you get so much traction that traction control rarely even kicks in.
The problem with traction control is that if friction is very low it literally will not allow your wheels to turn. The owner’s manual of my wife’s FWD Odyssey addresses this. It says if you get to the point that the wheels won’t spin due to poor traction you should switch off the traction control so it doesn't stop the wheel spin and try gently spinning/rocking the wheels to get going. A tried and true method I learned 45 years ago on the slippery dirt roads in Louisiana.
I'm in the medical field employed by the state of MA, a mandatory employee.
The problem I've run into with a 6,000lb, 325hp AWD SUV is that I can't lie and tell them "I can't make it in because of the snow."
Hard to imagine a vehicle better for speed limit snow travel than this thing.
captdownshift wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: True, but traction control is defeatable, AWD isn't
It's defeatable by driving within the traction limits of the tires, but that's a buzzkill.
I generally quite liked my WRX. I felt like the AWD made it generally neutral, and honestly I preferred its steering feel to our new Mini.
I think for best tactile experience I'd go RWD, but I don't hate AWD, and I think I prefer it to FWD with any significant power.
But I haven't driven many AWD cars.
jharry3 wrote: The problem with traction control is that if friction is very low it literally will not allow your wheels to turn. The owner’s manual of my wife’s FWD Odyssey addresses this. It says if you get to the point that the wheels won’t spin due to poor traction you should switch off the traction control so it doesn't stop the wheel spin and try gently spinning/rocking the wheels to get going. A tried and true method I learned 45 years ago on the slippery dirt roads in Louisiana.
If friction is low enough , once you turn off traction control stopped, on a hill with all season tires in a fwd/rwd and possibly AWD/4WD vehicle, you're pretty much already hosed.
Our problem was getting up steep hills with switchbacks. You cant maintain enough momentum after the turn to make it up the hill. Dedicated winter tires (especially studded) have made all the difference in the world.
Bottom line: Winter tires are more important than drivetrain in 99% of paved on road winter situations.
Keith Tanner wrote: Not over it, sorryI'll take twice the traction over traction control any day of the week.
Me too. For me it's AWD all of the time.
I'm over AWD.
Sure, if I needed a zombie-snowpocalipse vehicle, then, well, sure. But I don't. I live in Chicago, and I can count the time I have not been able to drive somewhere in the last 3 years because of snow in hours. Lived in Madison WI before that and didn't need AWD there either.
Please name me an AWD car that weighs less than 3000 lbs.
I'll take small, simple, light, and even slow, please.
When I was shopping for a 997, I was mostly looking at rwd cars. I found a C4 that was way nicer than anything else I'd looked at and priced super acceptably so I decided to go for it. It's my first awd 911 and I tell you, I'm hella sold. I love how it drives and how it feels when those front wheels claw the ground for extra traction to help pull that light, light nose through a turn. It's also wicked amazing in the snow but even for good, spirited driving, I really like it.
I'm kinda sold enough that I can't see buying another 911 to daily drive that isn't awd.
My SHO is my first AWD car (not counting various 4WD trucks), and I freaking love it. Even though it has serious torque, when I goose the throttle, it just goes, no matter what the weather conditions. No wheelspin, no traction control restricting the throttle, just acceleration. Of course I don't NEED it, I got by without it for many years, but there's no doubt it's better.
captdownshift wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: True, but traction control is defeatable, AWD isn't
You've never welded a center diff and popped the front CVs have you?
Robbie wrote: I'm over AWD. Sure, if I needed a zombie-snowpocalipse vehicle, then, well, sure. But I don't. I live in Chicago, and I can count the time I have not been able to drive somewhere in the last 3 years because of snow in *hours*. Lived in Madison WI before that and didn't need AWD there either. Please name me an AWD car that weighs less than 3000 lbs. I'll take small, simple, light, and even slow, please.
'98-'01 Impreza 2.5RS
griffin729 wrote:Robbie wrote: I'm over AWD. Sure, if I needed a zombie-snowpocalipse vehicle, then, well, sure. But I don't. I live in Chicago, and I can count the time I have not been able to drive somewhere in the last 3 years because of snow in *hours*. Lived in Madison WI before that and didn't need AWD there either. Please name me an AWD car that weighs less than 3000 lbs. I'll take small, simple, light, and even slow, please.'98-'01 Impreza 2.5RS
1988 323 GTX
1986 Subaru wagon
Selected because I used to own them
2017 Mazda CX3 AWD is under 3000 as well, actually.
Robbie wrote: I'm over AWD. Sure, if I needed a zombie-snowpocalipse vehicle, then, well, sure. But I don't. I live in Chicago, and I can count the time I have not been able to drive somewhere in the last 3 years because of snow in *hours*. Lived in Madison WI before that and didn't need AWD there either. Please name me an AWD car that weighs less than 3000 lbs. I'll take small, simple, light, and even slow, please.
AWD Subaru Justy
Suzuki SX4
AWD, please. On pavement I usually never need it, but I don't drive on pavement all of the time.
4wd is a scam. No 4wd car has ever won a formula 1 race. Or the Indy 500. Or more critically, the America's Cup.
Lack of traction in a rwd car is not a problem, it's where the fun starts.
I'm ok with the extra weight of awd but I am always bothered by the lack of steering feel and the weird understeer thing they do. The awd system of the Porsche 911 Turbo is the exception, I would take one of those for a daily driver or a track car. We have long winters up here and awd is really nice but not enough for me to actually buy an awd car. A good set of winter tires and a limited slip diff goes a long, long way
Cactus wrote: 4wd is a scam. No 4wd car has ever won a formula 1 race. Or the Indy 500. Or more critically, the America's Cup. Lack of traction in a rwd car is not a problem, it's where the fun starts.
A scam? Don't tell the World Rally guys. I'm sure they will be disappointed that they have been wrong all these years.
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